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 Forum index » Chaotic Fiction » Marble Hornets
[OT] Info for Newcomers: DO NOT RESPOND TO FAKE ENTRIES
Moderators: Giskard, JKatkina, Zarggg
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Feiticera
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Joined: 22 Apr 2011
Posts: 178
Location: London, UK

That's a great solution, the board is looking much better, nice work and thanks JKatkina.

PostPosted: Sun Jun 12, 2011 5:53 pm
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Cougar Draven
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Joined: 30 Oct 2010
Posts: 1190
Location: Potentially everywhere.

For whatever reason, there are more troll posts here than in SMM, but people are terrible about not letting the mods know about them when they happen.
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 12, 2011 7:13 pm
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awakeasaurusrex
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Joined: 12 Oct 2010
Posts: 1099

Still wondering why ToTheLarp hasn't just been banned. I thought I'd made a pretty good case that TTL's behaviour was both a) a type of spamming and b) violating the ToS; in fact, I honestly can't see how someone can reasonably argue that it isn't either of those things. Would like some clarification here.

PostPosted: Mon Jun 13, 2011 8:47 am
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Cougar Draven
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Joined: 30 Oct 2010
Posts: 1190
Location: Potentially everywhere.

He hasn't been banned yet because A.) Mods can't actually ban, and B.) The admins have a lot of shit on their plates.

We're working on it, I promise.
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 15, 2011 9:37 pm
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awakeasaurusrex
Entrenched


Joined: 12 Oct 2010
Posts: 1099

Cougar Draven wrote:
He hasn't been banned yet because A.) Mods can't actually ban, and B.) The admins have a lot of shit on their plates.

We're working on it, I promise.
I was actually addressing Space Bass there, because A.) they are actually an administrator and B.) they seemed to be making a call as an admin that what ToTheLarp was doing was somehow not spamming and entirely consistent with the ToS. Which I think is a pretty incredible position to take.

PostPosted: Tue Jun 21, 2011 12:13 pm
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Dray
Pretty talky there aintcha, Talky?


Joined: 15 Jan 2010
Posts: 2578
Location: Cowtown, AB

It's nice to have some indication as to what needs doing regarding spam threads and (more importantly) someone who is willing to skim through and tidy up on a regular basis! Very Happy

PostPosted: Wed Jun 22, 2011 11:28 am
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Nickjackal
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Joined: 21 Mar 2011
Posts: 156
Location: All around the mulberry bush, TN

I'm now starting a list of user names of trolls who have posted fake entries, as a warning for newcomers.

To/TwoTheLarp is on there.

PostPosted: Sun Jul 03, 2011 6:38 am
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ICEAL3X
Boot

Joined: 12 Jul 2011
Posts: 19

awakeasaurusrex wrote:
Still wondering why ToTheLarp hasn't just been banned. I thought I'd made a pretty good case that TTL's behaviour was both a) a type of spamming and b) violating the ToS; in fact, I honestly can't see how someone can reasonably argue that it isn't either of those things. Would like some clarification here.


I Understand your frustration over a troll like this completely and while I agree with the fact that these kind of users should be banned without much of a chance to roam, Bass and the other Veterans of this board made some really good points:

1. The troller can easily create a new account in about 5 minutes under a new email and begin again. If we rely on banning(and by relation rely on the admins "policing" the forum), then they would have to spend more time looking at all the trollers, banning them, and receiving flak from it.(where there's one troller there are probably more) This is counterproductive for them and is not what the admins want for the community as a whole

2. Considering that the specific examples given were one troller, I think it's fair that by this point, most of the trolls are well contained because users read these stickys and have some common sennse, or they get bored and go away. So while banning him is a very respectable idea, I also believe that ignoring the troll will make him go away just as easily.

If you have a serious problem with this guy or any other troll, I'm pretty sure that you can appeal to an admin over a PM or in a chat to get Larp banned without much difficulty

PostPosted: Thu Jul 14, 2011 1:13 pm
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Cougar Draven
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Joined: 30 Oct 2010
Posts: 1190
Location: Potentially everywhere.

awakeasaurusrex wrote:
Cougar Draven wrote:
He hasn't been banned yet because A.) Mods can't actually ban, and B.) The admins have a lot of shit on their plates.

We're working on it, I promise.
I was actually addressing Space Bass there, because A.) they are actually an administrator and B.) they seemed to be making a call as an admin that what ToTheLarp was doing was somehow not spamming and entirely consistent with the ToS. Which I think is a pretty incredible position to take.


That's not the position that was taken at all. The administrators give a lot of leeway to users. One, two, even three rulebreaking instances still doesn't necessarily warrant a ban. Even in the cases where it does, it's not so much a ban as it is a temporary lock on the account, which can (and usually is) lifted if the user talks to Bass or one of the other admins.

ICEAL3X wrote:
I Understand your frustration over a troll like this completely and while I agree with the fact that these kind of users should be banned without much of a chance to roam, Bass and the other Veterans of this board made some really good points:

1. The troller can easily create a new account in about 5 minutes under a new email and begin again. If we rely on banning(and by relation rely on the admins "policing" the forum), then they would have to spend more time looking at all the trollers, banning them, and receiving flak from it.(where there's one troller there are probably more) This is counterproductive for them and is not what the admins want for the community as a whole


This is exactly right (and, it turns out, is what happened when Larp was eventually banned). Bass, the admins, JKatkina and myself (over in SMM) and the other mods, we're not here to "police" you guys, you're supposed to do it yourself. (And, quite frankly, most of you are terrible at it.) We're here to keep things running smoothly, and for the most part people should be sending the mods messages asking them for help, rather than the mods having to search out individual trollish and misplaced posts.

But, in a perfect world we wouldn't be in the middle of a global financial crisis.

ICEAL3X wrote:
2. Considering that the specific examples given were one troller, I think it's fair that by this point, most of the trolls are well contained because users read these stickys and have some common sennse, or they get bored and go away. So while banning him is a very respectable idea, I also believe that ignoring the troll will make him go away just as easily.


You'd...be surprised. A lot of the time (especially recently, with the SA incursions from EverymanHYBRID) the trolls disappear for a week or so and then show up again. A lot of the reason you don't see pages and pages of troll threads is because we have a system of merging all the troll threads into one.

ICEAL3X wrote:
If you have a serious problem with this guy or any other troll, I'm pretty sure that you can appeal to an admin over a PM or in a chat to get Larp banned without much difficulty


Again, you'd be surprised. The mods can't ban, but we can pass along requests to the admins (and bring our own, as far as that goes). And it's up to the admins whether or not someone gets banned. I know of at least three people who have been frequently nominated for a ban who are still around because they got talked to and calmed their shit down. I also know of a few who are still around because the admins are very permissive about the rules being interpreted, more so than even I am.

And that's a good thing, in my book. We can't just go banning people left and right for the smallest infraction.
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 15, 2011 11:53 pm
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SpaceBass
The BADministrator


Joined: 20 Sep 2002
Posts: 2701
Location: pellucidar

When you were little, did you ever get picked on by some other kid? And maybe you told your mom or dad and they suggested something like asking the kid to be your friend? Well that was shitty advice because little kids are amoral assholes.

It turns out in the abstract to be a pretty good thing to keep in mind when you get older, however, assuming you still have to deal with people. And most trolls aren't little kids even when they seem to act like it sometimes.

There are two basic impulses driving trollery: a desire for attention and an active curiosity about rules and boundaries, and how far they can be pushed. Pushing far enough gets you the attention but it also is fun just to see how things break.

I totally get the boundary part. I love breaking things or subverting rules. I just don't tend to exercise that joy in ways that would be harmful or hurtful, at least not intentionally. Sometimes it's fun to bust something apart and then show how you did it so that thing can be improved, or buttressed against others who might have done the same except maliciously.

It also turns out that that kind of skill is pretty valuable in ARGs, especially when channeled in constructive ways. Those are the kind of people who can take a look at some artificial barrier to information and see it in a different way, figure out some creative way around it. One secret to crowdsourcing an effort is that you need a diverse population, not just a motivated one.

For the kind of large-scale collaborative action of ARGers to be successful, we have to be able to do it in an environment that supports a big group with all sorts of different viewpoints, and in a way that's sustainable over time. There's no way to force people to behave in a certain fashion and I personally can't stand it when people tell me what to do.

Here's another thing very few seem to consider, most people are fundamentally good and hardly anyone really thinks him or herself to be a jerk. But they'll sure act like jerks if you treat them that way because hey, you're an asshole for having the wrong idea about them.

On the other hand, if you try to treat people with respect and allow them to own their participation in a group, most of the time they'll feel empowered by it and step up because of that. Trying to create some kind of particular discussion culture via top-down edict is mostly futile and when it does work, it ends up creating a homogeneous sort of environment that is prone to group-think and creative ruts. That doesn't really help us as a community to do what we set out to do.

You guys, working together, can do basically anything better than the few of us mods and admins, including figuring out how to work together. We're just here to facilitate that, which we partly do by emphasizing a welcoming place that encourages participation, and we mostly do by quietly dealing with spam, fixing threads, tagging posts, and whatever else.

Not to get all "kumbaya motherfucker" but I truly do have a lot of faith in humanity and in the ability for people to come together and make something that is greater than the sum of its parts. If I didn't, I would have little incentive to continue putting the kind of time, money, and effort into this place that I have for the last nine years. But it's worked out pretty well so far, and I think a big reason is that we don't try to make things happen so much as let them.

Anyway, you can play whack-a-troll until the cows come home if that's what jiggles your jumblies, but it's an endless, no-win situation. The internet trope is that the only way to deal with trolls is to ignore them. This is effective to be sure but many times converting them into collaborative participants is far more preferable. And it turns out helping others is also a great way to get attention.
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 16, 2011 1:09 am
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Cougar Draven
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Joined: 30 Oct 2010
Posts: 1190
Location: Potentially everywhere.

Is there any way we could have that put as a Slender Man/Marble Hornets announcement or something?
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 16, 2011 4:32 pm
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SpaceBass
The BADministrator


Joined: 20 Sep 2002
Posts: 2701
Location: pellucidar

Cougar Draven wrote:
Is there any way we could have that put as a Slender Man/Marble Hornets announcement or something?


Hmm, anything's possible I guess, if you think it's worth it taken out of the context of this thread.
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 16, 2011 5:02 pm
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ICEAL3X
Boot

Joined: 12 Jul 2011
Posts: 19

SpaceBass wrote:
Anyway, you can play whack-a-troll until the cows come home if that's what jiggles your jumblies, but it's an endless, no-win situation. The internet trope is that the only way to deal with trolls is to ignore them. This is effective to be sure but many times converting them into collaborative participants is far more preferable. And it turns out helping others is also a great way to get attention.


I think that is one reason people get frustrated with trollers in general is because they want to feel better about getting rid of one guy even if 2 more will take its place.

However I completely agree, because

Quote:
We can't just go banning people left and right for the smallest infraction.

Cougar said it best,
if the admins did do that then unforum may not be as big as it is.

Plus I do believe that trolls have their usefulness, because sometimes people can get way to caught up in the story(and/or the discussion of said story) and when that happens a troll comes along and snaps us back to reality for a second so we can calm down and relax.

PostPosted: Wed Jul 20, 2011 7:10 pm
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awakeasaurusrex
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Joined: 12 Oct 2010
Posts: 1099

The message I'm taking away from this that the mods and admins made a community entirely too large for them to effectively manage and then did their best to disavow as much responsibility as they could and convince themselves that that's how they planned it all along.

Kidding ourselves that idiots who show no intention of engaging constructively a) can be informed or b) have a right to be here is what makes this forum vastly, vastly less useful than it could be.

Humph.

PostPosted: Sat Jul 30, 2011 1:45 pm
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Nickjackal
Decorated


Joined: 21 Mar 2011
Posts: 156
Location: All around the mulberry bush, TN

Update: ChrisAnal (lovely name by the way) is our newest entry to the list of trolls. Not to give him praise for something such as this, but he responded to his own thread so it would stay up just a little longer, showing a certain amount more cleverness than we're accustomed to.

And awakeasaurusrex, I do agree with you in the assumption that the community is becoming too large for them to manage effectively. From what I've noticed, and this may be because Jkat is simply more noticeably active than Davflamerock or ndemeter, Jkatkina is the one doing the most noticable work to suppress the troll problem on this board.

I also agree that the blatantly obvious trolls ( Names involving 20dollaz, the word anal or sex organs, the ones who on their first or second posts do something like post a fake ToTheArk or MH entry) should not be allotted the same rights as regular posters, as they usually make their intentions quite clear within their first few posts, usually involving some form of fake entry or harassment.

I can understand the admins and mods' concern about having the board become a "police state", but really, at this point it's like someone intentionally smearing themselves with shit, stripping naked and going to a community pool and waving their dick around at people, and when someone asks the police to remove the man from the premises, the officer just shrugs and goes " I gotta take it up with the commissioner, it wouldn't be right to take away his right to come to the pool".

Then the guy gets off with a slap on the wrist, and then others go " Hey, the police didn't arrest that guy, let's smear ourselves with shit and wave our junk at people too!"

That or it's the same guy who keeps going back to the pool in a different disguise every week.

I dunno. I respect the admins and mods, don't get me wrong, I just don't quite agree with their position on the mostly obvious trolls. A first post is usually where a user makes their first impression of what to expect from them.

*hopes that made sense as I'm tired and in a ranting mood.*
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 31, 2011 2:19 am
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