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massive
Veteran

Joined: 23 Dec 2005
Posts: 110

Pondering about the number pairs has me wondering if the numbers (the solutions) are actually the puzzle answer, which then had me wondering if this is another throwback to CTW1. Was there something in the original that referenced the six fingers?

Posted: Mon May 15, 2006 3:47 pm
curiouswife
Boot

Joined: 14 Apr 2006
Posts: 40
Location: Manchester, UK

I wasn't in on the first CTW, but a quick look through the archive picks up on the point that the 'Guides' including Digitalis at Ash Grove Park, had six fingers or variable numbers of fingers.
Can someone remember the details - save us searching any more?!
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Curiousity doesn't kill - ignorance does.

Posted: Mon May 15, 2006 4:56 pm
Decorated

Joined: 23 Mar 2003
Posts: 250

This is making me think of the damn greywethers login puzzle, which I don't think we actually ever solved...or maybe we solved in the post-game minigame. Anyone remember how that went? All I have saved is some of the clues from the guides:

 Quote: these names made up of numbers are quite intentional in size they're meant to show there's two on each one on either side the names tell you which two are there now find what they become the plus sign has a purpose but it's not to find a sum the name of each page has two numbers and on each many formulas fall but the thing that you need is an alphabet indeed as twenty six there is total in all so if 1 plus 6 equals letters one on each side of the sign how could you know how the other numbers go there must be some way to divine there's one thing that separates the numbers on the page as the same in the name so look for that sign it's there by design and it shows you which ones are the same

And then I think we totally failed it and got this instead :/

 Quote: my poems, it seems, have failed at best and none have yet to pass the test and still, there are rules I must abide and so another way I've tried perhaps words not numbers will show the way and lead beyond, inside the grey for time is fleeting, our chances wane and rising winds spin the weather vane where numbers may have stopped your path a new way lies, devoid of math step by step you must progress before any truths I may confess

I also vaguely remember we solved one greywethers puzzle by creating a grid. I wonder if some sort of grid structure is called for here? Seems we have two numerical "axis" with some designated as +/- number and some as number +/-...but I don't think I can get two axis out of that since each word is only designated once. I'll have to ponder it some.

Posted: Tue May 16, 2006 1:34 pm
MageSteff
Pretty talky there aintcha, Talky?

Joined: 06 Jun 2003
Posts: 2716
Location: State of Denial

 StarkRavingMad wrote: This is making me think of the damn greywethers login puzzle, which I don't think we actually ever solved...or maybe we solved in the post-game minigame. Anyone remember how that went? All I have saved is some of the clues from the guides: I also vaguely remember we solved one greywethers puzzle by creating a grid. I wonder if some sort of grid structure is called for here? Seems we have two numerical "axis" with some designated as +/- number and some as number +/-...but I don't think I can get two axis out of that since each word is only designated once. I'll have to ponder it some.

That was the infamous Greywethers Login Puzzle which wasn't solved unitl recently by Grumpyboy on February 20,2006.

There was a lot of different ways we had crunched the numbers during the game itself, and when it became painfully obvious that we weren't going to crack it anytime soon, the PMs provided an alternate route for use to get through the entry to the place we needed to be.

That Grumpyboy is just Freaking amazing.
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Magesteff
A small group of thoughtful people could change the world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever has. - Margaret Mead

Posted: Tue May 16, 2006 1:55 pm
Ehsan
Entrenched

Joined: 09 May 2003
Posts: 992

Just repeating what has been said and summarizing my own thoughts:

What bothers me about this one is that the first logical conclusion to reach a solution (using pairs) doesn't give valid results. The number of groups just doesn't create equal pairs without a leftover:

7 (+
7 (-
13 )
10 (
6 +)
5 -)

Pairing seems to be the logical thing to do, because there are 24 left vs 24 right brackets. Another thing to support logical pairs is that there are 24 lines on the paper. I don't think it's just a coincidence, so there should be 24 pairs.

But there are 23 unsigned vs 25 signed brackets, so it's impossible to pair them without creating illogical operations.

This can easily be fixed by removing one sign and adding it to an unsigned word, but there are 575 combinations for doing so.

So unless there is a mistake in this puzzle, I don't know what to do with it. If anyone can come up with different ways for pairing that would help. If not, then the solution might be something completely different, and not using operators or brackets in the traditional sense.

Examples of other ways of solving: Using the numbers to lead to the next word based on the number of letters in that word, and the position based on the location in the paper because of the red separator (+ is the right side and - is the left side)

Posted: Mon May 22, 2006 5:57 am
Kender
Decorated

Joined: 09 Aug 2004
Posts: 264
Location: The Netherlands

Embedding pairs in pairs can solve the discrepancy between signed and unsigned brackets I think.

"only he said your scattered mind looks well"
"(4+ 2) (3 +1) (6- (1 +1) -3)"
Uses 5 signed and 3 unsigned brackets, leaving 20/20 for the rest.

To make things harder we can also consider multiplication like (3 (2 +1) -1)

Posted: Wed May 24, 2006 4:48 pm
konamouse
Official uF Dietitian

Joined: 02 Dec 2002
Posts: 7566
Location: My own alternate reality

Ooooh, you may be on to something!!!

Do these words fit into anything we've seen around Klepsydra or what the Nurse wrote on the 307 pages, or what we're seeing in Mythosphere? That might help us put them together.
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r u a Sammeeeee? I am Forever!

Posted: Wed May 24, 2006 4:51 pm
promethean
Greenhorn

Joined: 17 Feb 2006
Posts: 8
Location: glasgow, uk

 Kender wrote: Embedding pairs in pairs can solve the discrepancy between signed and unsigned brackets I think. "only he said your scattered mind looks well" "(4+ 2) (3 +1) (6- (1 +1) -3)" Uses 5 signed and 3 unsigned brackets, leaving 20/20 for the rest. To make things harder we can also consider multiplication like (3 (2 +1) -1)

I mulled that for a while, and you could be right, but for some reason having one multiple bracket equation seems messy to me. Why do the puzzle that way unless they'e trying to tell us something!

I'm not sure it even works with multiplication (or maybe i just hope it doesn't!)

My only thought is that the first and last brackets aren't pairs. Like:
 Code: +3) your hand (4- 1) make ... on   (2 +1) your the  (6-

Ruled out some things though:
1) Eqations that reacht he same number. even without the mismatched final pair it doesn't work
2) Simple geometric pattern of additions. ie (2+1) then (5-1). With numbers like 7 and many low digits it just doesn't pan out (I think).

I've been playing around with word combinations and phrases and hoping some number pattern leaps out at me. Nothing so far. There doesn't appear to be many ways to match the brackets that make sense. I'll go away and think some more...

Posted: Wed May 24, 2006 5:37 pm
drizjr
Unfictologist

Joined: 28 Nov 2003
Posts: 1672

Dale's meeting The Wish

Just to remind those that played CTW and inform those new to this game, about Dale's first meeting with "The Wish"; this is from mssv.net/gamewiki of Dale's diary <snip>
<snip>
The sense of urgency to choose, the use of lad....I think it's what "Automatic Writing" is about.
Isn't it odd that the word "wish" isn't on the page?

Posted: Mon May 29, 2006 11:48 pm
Rogi Ocnorb
I Have 100 Cats and Smell of Wee

Joined: 01 Sep 2005
Posts: 4244
Location: Where the cheese is free.

My take on "automatic writing" is that it isn't a reference to Dale's hand automatically generating the document, but more that there is an automated methodology in it's construction. Thus there is likely an automated method for solving it. One of the theories we've discussed is a grid system of some sort that would place the words in position based on the values associated with them. Given the small range of numbers we have for the axes, I don't think placement on a single large grid is a possibility. The alternative would be layers or otherwise dimensioning the data into more than 2 dimensions, If we take a cube for example, we could be talking about positioning the words spatially, withing the cube or positioning them on the six faces of the cube. Cubic form comes to my mind for two reasons.
1) There are six types of brackets: Opening and closing, each with positive, negative and unsigned integers

2) The inclusion a pic of Digitalis' hand. It could be a clue as well as a hint as to what is in the text

That said... I can't find a way to place the words on a cube that "works"

Example: (8 words on each cube face)
Words with "(#+" go in upper left
Words with "+#)" go in upper right
Words with "(+" go in middle left
Words with "-)" go in middle right
Words with "(#-" go in lower left
Words with "-#)" go in lower right
It's obvious there aren't either 6(corners) or 12(middles) of each, so I'm wondering if the position on the page or the integer value can be factored into it.

Another couple of things I noticed that I don't think have been mentioned yet are:

The orientation of eight of the words being different. They are written at an angle:
one +1)
to 2)
he -3)
six (5-
other 5)
not 2)
for 7)
Could be nothing, or it could be intentional, or it could be that they were written in a separate session, possibly related to a certain "step" in a process.

The position of the integer in relation to it's word varies in certain instances, but It doesn't seem to be part of the solve method. More just like they had to be moved due to a dropping type letter or other reasons.
"scattered" and "only" are sort of "odd ducks" though.
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Posted: Thu Jun 01, 2006 1:32 am
drizjr
Unfictologist

Joined: 28 Nov 2003
Posts: 1672

While reading Dale's journal dated June 1st, these words popped up at me... "he has six fingers on one hand", as a possible string of words that appear in this puzzle, but with a change of tense.
"he had six fingers on one hand".
Maybe the next line would be, "on the other only five."

It's not very helpful, just thought I'd mention it.

Posted: Fri Jun 02, 2006 11:38 pm
Sylvia
I Have No Life

Joined: 21 Apr 2006
Posts: 2062

I've been working on this and have a possible beginning to a solve. The part that has problems is the second and last sentences.

The words "only (4+" and "looks +1)" in the second sentence and "choose (1+" and "quickly"+1)" in the last don't seem to fit right.

Maybe one of you can see what needs to be done.

There are 4 sentences with 12 words per sentence.

scattered on one hand he had six fingers, on the other five
(6- (2 +1) (4- 2) (3 (5- 4) +2) (6- 5) 5)
with a grin he said, it only looks real to someone alive
(1+ 1) (3 -3) (3 (3- (4+ +1) -2) 2) (3- (4
well not for you anyway, mind your careful of what you say
-3) 2) 1) (3+ 5) (1 +1) (4+ (2 -1) (3+ 1)
look son no time to think, choose quickly lad, make yours now
(4 (2+ 2) (3 -2) (1 (1+ +1) (4+ 1) (3- 1)

Words with two meanings:
he, he
2), -3)
on, on
(2, +2)
to, to
2), -2)
you, you
(3+, +2)

(2+, (4+

Posted: Sat Jun 03, 2006 1:36 am
Last edited by Sylvia on Thu Jul 27, 2006 10:41 pm; edited 3 times in total
pagrashtak
Veteran

Joined: 01 Jun 2006
Posts: 78

Nice, you got a lot closer to coherent sentences than I ever did. Of course, my degree is in mathematics, so I probably spend too much time worrying about the numbers instead of the words. This does give me hope for making an actual poem. The double sign problems you have can be gotten rid of with easy switches - try "looks real only" instead of "only looks real" and "quickly choose" instead of "choose quickly". Of course, this underlies a problem; there are many switches possible like this that do not change the meaning of the sentences, so we need to find something that tells us when we have the right order.

I really like the fact that the first two sentences rhyme. You can make the last two rhyme also by, say, switching "anyway" and "now". The third sentence is using "your" where a "you're" belongs, so that part will need some more experimentation also.

Random thoughts that may or may not be useful:
The puzzle is written on a Gregg ruled pad, commonly used in stenography. Is this a hint to make us think of "steganography"? Is there a second layer here to help us order the words correctly?

I'm interested in the idea of the 24 lines. Notice that even though some words are written at an angle, no words really cross over the lines; it is very easy to tell what line each word belongs too. The earlier poster that brought this to my attention had a couple of errors, though. The number of words per line I read is
1 4 1 3 3 1 2 2 1 4 2 0 4 1 3 1 3 2 2 2 3 1 1 1
Furthermore, there is a blank 25th line at the bottom. If we include this, we have 25 lines that yield 24 differences:
-3 3 -2 0 2 -1 0 1 -3 2 2 -4 3 -2 2 -2 1 0 0 -1 2 0 0 1
3 -3 2 0 -2 1 0 -1 3 -2 -2 4 -3 2 -2 2 -1 0 0 1 -2 0 0 -1

Posted: Sat Jun 03, 2006 8:12 am
Sylvia
I Have No Life

Joined: 21 Apr 2006
Posts: 2062

Giving it another shot. Math still doesn't work though.

scattered on one hand
on the other five

with a grin said he
it looks real only
to someone alive

look of you son

careful what you say
no time for to think
anyway make yours

now

Posted: Tue Jun 06, 2006 12:20 am
Last edited by Sylvia on Thu Jul 27, 2006 10:42 pm; edited 2 times in total
Citizen Kane
Unfettered

Joined: 29 May 2006
Posts: 486
Location: Aglaura, NJ

Just looking at Sylvia's attempt gave me a few ideas.

 Quote: six fingers on one hand on the other five he said with a grin it only looks real to someone alive you look now son no time to think careful what you say choose quickly lad your mind scattered make yours anyway he had for not well of

yeah, not perfect and I'll bet the math is terrible, but it looks to me like what happened when the Wish appeared to Dale.

I'm going to look up a decent poem generator and see what I can get.
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It is better to keep your mouth closed and let people think you are a fool than to open it and remove all doubt.
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Posted: Tue Jun 06, 2006 12:41 am
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