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thebruce
Dances With Wikis

Joined: 16 Aug 2004
Posts: 6776
Location: Kitchener, Ontario

 Weezel wrote: This would assume that if the distance between our London and Warren is X, then the distance between City A (their London counterpart) and City B (their Warren counterpart) is also X.

nono... man this is difficult to explain
if we find Warren at location 2 on world B, then using that orientation, we find Madrid at location 4 on world B, then the orientation is correct (and we've match location 2 on postcard 1 and location 4 on postcard 2 to the same world). I don't really think the order of worlds to postcard locations matters, just that we get the right orientation for each of the worlds to our own.

So the process would be -
1) for each postcard 1 location (just do one at a time), align the city to the continent layout (just do one world for each at a time). That is, take the coordinates, and align where Warren would be on that world with each location.
2) for each postcard 2 location, do the same.
3) look for an orientation match. if the theory holds, there should be an orientation that matches for both postcard 1 and 2. In which case we've determined that world's orientation.
then just do the same for the other worlds.

 Quote: ...irregardless...

 Quote: So I'm not sure that with the PanCosmologizer that we're trying to get all 6 of our locations to line up on 6 land spots on the other 6 land masses.

Agreed. Since we have a city name as the source, we're looking for where that city woud be (land or sea) on the other continents. The check is finding a match of orientations between the two postcards. Not in order to determine which worlds are which locations, but rather to determine the correct orientations of the continents.

 danteIL wrote: "We are here in Madrid in this world" and in another world Madrid is "here" and...

whether the city name in those worlds is Madrid or not (it's the coordinates that are important)
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Posted: Fri Apr 25, 2008 10:04 am
unagi
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Joined: 31 Mar 2008
Posts: 464
Location: Japan

Anyway, Madrid and Warren on Pangaea.

The distance between Madrid and Warren appears ca. 2000 km. So only the third pair in the two postcard can be linked to Pangaea. But if we suppose so, the equator and the poles in Pangaea is very different from the theory in our world.
 MnW_Pangaea.JPG Description Filesize 39.83KB Viewed 779 Time(s)

Posted: Fri Apr 25, 2008 10:07 am
danteIL
Unfictologist

Joined: 08 May 2006
Posts: 1671

 thebruce wrote: 1) for each postcard 1 location (just do one at a time), align the city to the continent layout (just do one world for each at a time). That is, take the coordinates, and align where Warren would be on that world with each location.

Ummm, you are really going to have to break this down because I have no idea what you are suggesting here.

EDIT: furthermore, how in the world (ha!) are you going to be able to apply any kind of coordinate system to any of the other worlds??

EDIT2: Aha! I found the solution. Click this link. (Sapagoo will get the joke -- and it is just a joke!).

Posted: Fri Apr 25, 2008 10:20 am
Last edited by danteIL on Fri Apr 25, 2008 10:40 am; edited 1 time in total
thebruce
Dances With Wikis

Joined: 16 Aug 2004
Posts: 6776
Location: Kitchener, Ontario

ok let me try this another way...

Take say Pangaea first, because its continents are the most well defined.

Postcard 1 we've got:
LONDON, ENGLAND
COPENHAGEN, DENMARK
BOSTON, MASSACHUSETTS
TORONTO, ONTARIO
RIO DE JANEIRO, BRAZIL

So, align Pangaea's approximate Madrid location with each of the above locations on our world. Then mark where Warren would also be on Pangaea (the reason below)

Postcard 2 weve got:
WARREN, OHIO
MUNICH, GERMANY
TOULOUSE
ORAN, ALGERIA
BRASILIA, BRAZIL

So do the same - align Pangaea's approximate Warren location with each of the above locations, and mark where Madrid would be on those Pangaea maps.

Now we've got 12 different alignments (not including orientation), so we have to match orientation (rotation). Each alignment has a root city and a marked city (6 Warren roots, and 6 Madrid roots, with each having the alternate city marked, the entire thing aligned by each postcard location)
There should, in theory, be one pair that will align when their orientations are matched.

Easy way to find that orientation? tricky. (right now they're all original orientation, so each pair (6*6 combinations) would need to be tested.
So, assuming that if the orientations are supposed to match, then the distance between its root city (let's use Pangaea Madrid's location 1) and its marked Warren location should match the distance to a Warren root city of postcard 2 (and likewise, the distance between the Warren root city and its marked Madrid should match the distance to that root Madrid).

that sounds complicated... I think I'm going to diagram it

edit: got postcards mixed up =P fixed
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Posted: Fri Apr 25, 2008 10:35 am
AUZ505
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Joined: 07 Mar 2008
Posts: 1556
Location: Germany

I think I understand what thebruce is suggesting:

Instead for looking for these combinations:

London - Munich
Copenhagen - Toulouse
...

we should look for all possible combinations (because it could be that they are not correctly ordered):

London - Toulouse
London - Oran
...

But this makes thing even more complicated

Even assuming the order is correct, there are more or less 4 possibilities for alinging for example Pangaea:
Besides Boston-Oran all would fit quite good.

Taking thebruce's suggestion into acount, we will get many more possibilities, e.g. London-Toulouse would also fit quite well.

[UPDATE]: Looking at unagis Pangaea suggestion, none of the 5 "predefined" pairs fit well, but Copenhagen-Oran could maybe. So thebruce might be right.

Posted: Fri Apr 25, 2008 12:17 pm
unagi
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Joined: 31 Mar 2008
Posts: 464
Location: Japan

If we think the orders in the two postcards are different, I think we need the 5 x 5 distances. The following table shows them (km).

-------------------------------------------------------------------
-------------------------------------------------------------------
London...............920........884......1749.....6389.....8781
Copenhagen.......846.......1558......2434....6838.....9723
Boston..............6199.......5715.....5953.....1504.....6866
Toronto.............6645.......6238.....6544......814.....7329
Rio de Janeiro....9504.......8594.....7814....8687.......911
-------------------------------------------------------------------

The Madrid-Warren distance is ca. 2000 km, so the pairing in Pangaea would be one of the following four:
London (Madrid 2) - Oran (Warren 4)
Copenhagen (Madrid 3) - Toulouse (Warren 3)
Copenhagen (Madrid 3) - Oran (Warren 4)

All of the directions of these four pairs are different from that of Madrid-Warren in Pangaea hypothesized in our world. So this means we have to change the orientaion from the default in Pan-cosmologizer.

If we doubt the magnifications in Pan-cosmologizer, I think it's hopeless.

EDIT: I made a mistake. The direction of Boston-Madison is similar to Madrid-Warren in Pangaea hypothesized in our world. So we have a chance to keep the default orientation in Pan-cosmologizer approximately.

Posted: Fri Apr 25, 2008 12:30 pm
Last edited by unagi on Fri Apr 25, 2008 2:11 pm; edited 1 time in total
Weezel
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Joined: 01 Sep 2006
Posts: 420
Location: National Park, NJ

 unagi wrote: If we think the orders in the two postcards are different, I think we need the 5 x 5 distances. The following table shows them (km). ------------------------------------------------------------------- .......................Munich..Toulouse..Oran..Madison..Brasilia ------------------------------------------------------------------- London...............920........884......1749.....6389.....8781 Copenhagen.......846.......1558......2434....6838.....9723 Boston..............6199.......5715.....5953.....1504.....6866 Toronto.............6645.......6238.....6544......814.....7329 Rio de Janeiro....9504.......8594.....7814....8687.......911 ------------------------------------------------------------------- The Madrid-Warren distance is ca. 2000 km, so the pairing in Pangaea would be one of the following four: London (Madrid 2) - Oran (Warren 4) Copenhagen (Madrid 3) - Toulouse (Warren 3) Copenhagen (Madrid 3) - Oran (Warren 4) Boston (Madrid 4) - Madison (Warren 5) All of the directions of these four pairs are different from that of Madrid-Warren in Pangaea hypothesized in our world. So this means we have to change the orientaion from the default in Pan-cosmologizer. If we doubt the magnifications in Pan-cosmologizer, I think it's hopeless.

Ok I'm starting to get the idea here.

So how are you determining the distances for the 5x5 grid on Pangea? Since there is actual extra land mass etc.

Wait a second.. we can determine distance's between GPS coordinates, ignoring the other factors. Is that what you did above Unagi?

I think so, as I took the GPS values and did distance calculations here (http://www.gpsvisualizer.com/calculators) and got the same results as you.

I lost myself again.. I need to have this discussion in IRC or on the phone or something, as this forum based isn't working for me.

Ok, so you have now you pick two pairs that have a similar distance as Gaea Madrid-Warren. I'm not sure what that goes you, again because its assuming that all cities are the same distances from each other in each world.. my head is going to explode.
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Posted: Fri Apr 25, 2008 1:07 pm
thebruce
Dances With Wikis

Joined: 16 Aug 2004
Posts: 6776
Location: Kitchener, Ontario

well first, here's the cosmologizer map (Gaea) with the postcard points

 gaea-cards.jpg Description Filesize 62.7KB Viewed 67 Time(s)
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Posted: Fri Apr 25, 2008 1:13 pm
Weezel
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Joined: 01 Sep 2006
Posts: 420
Location: National Park, NJ

 thebruce wrote: well first, here's the cosmologizer map (Gaea) with the postcard points

So in order to plot the points on another world map, how would you do that?

-Assume that the flat map version is the same scale as Gaea
-Plot the GPS points and see where they fall. Some on land, some on the sea?

What we need is a GPS tool that allows you to specify the base map(s) and then overlay the coordinates.

Would it help anything at all to put a 'shadow' of Gaea continents on the Supercontinent images? Meaning, their continents are different sizes because they have additional land mass interconnecting, so you don't see the exact same shape as ours...

As discussed on the IG forums, Delphi as the 'navel' might provide a common land point for orientation between worlds as well.

So maybe in addition to the 6 points, we should plot point D for Delphi

22o 29' 43" E
38o 28' 43" N

(http://www.gtp.gr/LocPage.asp?id=5427)

Not sure if this passage was ever brought up before..
 Quote: Delphi, with a population of 1.500, is one of the most beautiful and impressing landscapes of Greece, and the centre -"omphalos "- of the world, according to the ancient myth. It was already inhabited in the prehistoric times and later -especially during the classic times- obtained great historic importance, as it has been linked with the most significant events of Greek history.

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Posted: Fri Apr 25, 2008 1:29 pm
unagi
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Joined: 31 Mar 2008
Posts: 464
Location: Japan

 Weezel wrote: So how are you determining the distances for the 5x5 grid on Pangea? Since there is actual extra land mass etc.

No, I determined the distances on Gaea.

But if the city names are replaced with the coordinates, the table is common among the six world-types. I used the city names simply because I can remember them.

 Weezel wrote: Wait a second.. we can determine distance's between GPS coordinates, ignoring the other factors. Is that what you did above Unagi?

Yes, because the coordinates are common.

 Weezel wrote: Ok, so you have now you pick two pairs that have a similar distance as Gaea Madrid-Warren.

No. I pick pairs of similar distance to Pangaea Madrid-Warren.

 Weezel wrote: I'm not sure what that goes you, again because its assuming that all cities are the same distances from each other in each world.. my head is going to explode.

No, Madrid and Warren get close in Pangaea.

Posted: Fri Apr 25, 2008 1:34 pm
unagi
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Joined: 31 Mar 2008
Posts: 464
Location: Japan

Double post.
 unagi wrote: No. I pick pairs of similar distance to Pangaea Madrid-Warren.

The following is the two results: London (Madrid 2) - Oran (Warren 4) and Copenhagen (Madrid 3) - Oran (Warren 4). The latter fits better. But I don't believe the distances in Pan-cosmologizer, because the earth is spherical.

EDIT: I've just tried the other two pairs, and found the pair M3-W4 fits the best.
 m2_w4.jpg Description Filesize 232.7KB Viewed 51 Time(s)
 m3_w4.jpg Description Filesize 232.74KB Viewed 51 Time(s)

Posted: Fri Apr 25, 2008 1:54 pm
Last edited by unagi on Fri Apr 25, 2008 2:04 pm; edited 1 time in total
AUZ505
Unfictologist

Joined: 07 Mar 2008
Posts: 1556
Location: Germany

I think unagi and thebruce (and me) have now more or less a common understanding.

Weezel: we are only looking for madrid and warren on the other worlds. If we ''found'' them we have to align them with one of the pairs, whether the fixed 5 ones or the 25 combinations (if the restriction that they are already ordered is given up).

It is like a optmization problem. You can loose restrictions, then you will have more possibilities. More possibilities is on the one hand bad, because there are more cases to consider. On the other hand it is good, becuase the chance of finding a better solution is higher.

unagi: Taking the spherical issue into account is not possible with the PanCosmologizer, I guess.

Posted: Fri Apr 25, 2008 2:00 pm
sapagoo
Charter Member

Joined: 25 Sep 2002
Posts: 1209
Location: Atlanta, GA

Here his my attempt #3.
It's got all 6 worlds, and a line for each world going from "Warren" to "Madrid." I've circled Madrid.

I tried to minimize rotation.
I started with Gaea, then placed Neopangaea & Pangaea, since they are the most similar to Gaea. Then placed Gondwana, since it's the next most similar, and then tweaked Kenorland & Nuna/Columbia to match the 2 Warren/Madrid pairs I had left.

It kinda sorta looks like Ariock's map of Warren/Madrid pairs.

PS - I took the liberty of placing Madrid and the Iberian peninsula with Africa for Nuna and Kenorland. It just seemed the thing to do.
 PanAttempt3.jpg Description Filesize 47.09KB Viewed 495 Time(s)

Posted: Fri Apr 25, 2008 2:14 pm
unagi
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Joined: 31 Mar 2008
Posts: 464
Location: Japan

Now I started investigating Gondwana. The word Gondwana in the artifacts doesn't mean the same thing in our geology, but the shape of Gondwana+Laurentia in 200 millions of years ago. Laurentia supercontinent later split into North America and most part of Eurasia. That means the distance of Madrid and Warren in Laurentia is similar to that in Pangaea. Namely, only with Madrid and Warren, we cannot discriminate Gondwana and Pangaea, and we have to find two pairs of the similar distance.

 AUZ505 wrote: unagi: Taking the spherical issue into account is not possible with the PanCosmologizer, I guess.

Of cource not

Posted: Fri Apr 25, 2008 2:26 pm
Last edited by unagi on Fri Apr 25, 2008 3:24 pm; edited 1 time in total
AUZ505
Unfictologist

Joined: 07 Mar 2008
Posts: 1556
Location: Germany

 unagi wrote: Now I started investigating Gondwana. The word Gondwana in the artifacts doesn't mean the same thing in our geology, but the shape of Gondwana+Laurentia in 200 millions of years. Laurentia supercontinent later split into North America and most part of Eurasia. That means the distance of Madrid and Warren in Laurentia is similar to that in Pangaea. Namely, only with Madrid and Warren, we cannot discriminate Gondwana and Pangaea, and we have to find two pairs of the similar distance.

And Neo-Pangaea has also a similar distance in my opinion - which makes three worlds we could not distinguish.

Posted: Fri Apr 25, 2008 2:49 pm
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