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 Forum index » Archive » Archive: MetaCortechs » MetaCortechs: General/Updates
[NEW] Beth's Little-Boxes update log
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xnbomb
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Joined: 13 Oct 2003
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Location: J302B S8JDC

Sticks and fire

There is a distinction that can be applied here that uses a reasonably objective sensor of whether or not burning occurred.

Beth's friend makes the fire such that she can put her hand in and not get burned. As she does so, she puts a fresh stick in the fire for a few minutes. She takes the stick (and her hand) out before the 'not burning' effect is turned off, but leaves both in long enough that they would have burned under normal circumstances. She then waits the appropriate interval until when the temporary effect ends to judge what happened. I am paraphrasing what I think AnthraX101 described in the other topic where this discussion is also occurring Smile

If the stick is not burnt after the fact, we know that not only did Beth not perceive (or experience) heat from the fire, but the stick too was affected by whatever Beth's friend did to the fire (i.e. her friend switched one the fire's properties to non-thermal, not just changing Beth's perception of the heat, but changing how the stick was affected by the heat). The distinction here is that not only has her friend altered her perception (or experience) at that moment, but he seems to have altered the fire's burning propery at that moment, such that the stick was unburned (wasn't there a non-thermal fire reference in the paranormal event archive) and even afterwards when his alteration to the fire expires, it remains unburned.

So, not only would her friend be altering her perception of reality when she had her hand in the fire, but he would be altering her perception of the stick in an apparently permanent way (or at least in a way that outlasts the duration of the effect), if the stick remains unburned after the temporary effect period wears off. I think it is easier to think that the stick is unburned because from the stick's point of view (also), the fire wasn't hot. This doesn't tell us anything about whether or not this is 'real' in a deeper sense, but it does tell us something about the extent to which her friend can change the rules in reality. And we learn this by exploiting his apparent 'temporary' limitation in the light of what should be permanent consequences.

(BTW, the other way to look at this: Her friend can make permanent or at least longer lasting change to perception of inanimate objects to maintain a reality that is consistent with the results of his previous changes to human perceptions. I don't like the sound of that because it seems to violate his temporary limitation, but it is an alternate explanation that is consistent I think with why Beth might see the stick as unburned henceforth. That would mean he can make some kinds of longer lasting changes.)
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 17, 2003 4:41 pm
Last edited by xnbomb on Mon Nov 17, 2003 4:53 pm; edited 1 time in total
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AnthraX101
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Re: Sticks and fire

xnbomb wrote:
There is a distinction that can be applied here that uses a reasonably objective sensor of whether or not burning occurred.

Beth's friend makes the fire such that she can put her hand in and not get burned. As she does so, she puts a fresh stick in the fire for a few minutes. She takes the stick (and her hand) out before the 'not burning' effect is turned off, but leaves both in long enough that they would have burned under normal circumstances. She then waits the appropriate interval until when the temporary effect ends to judge what happened. I am paraphrasing what I think AnthraX101 described in the other topic where this discussion is also occurring Smile

If the stick is not burnt after the fact, we know that not only did Beth not perceive heat from the fire, but the stick too was affected by whatever Beth's friend did to the fire (i.e. her friend switched one the fire's properties to non-thermal, not just changing Beth's perception of the heat, but changing how the stick was affected by the heat). The distinction here is that not only has her friend altered her perception at that moment, but he seems to have altered the fire's burning propery at that moment, such that the stick was unburned (wasn't there a non-thermal fire reference in the paranormal event archive) and even afterwards when his alteration to the fire expires, it remains unburned.

So, not only would her friend be altering her perception of reality when she had her hand in the fire, but he would be altering her perception of the stick in an apparently permanent way (or at least in a way that outlasts the duration of the effect), if the stick remains unburned after the temporary effect period wears off. I think it is easier to think that the stick is unburned because from the stick's point of view (also), the fire wasn't hot. This doesn't tell us anything about whether or not this is 'real' in a deeper sense, but it does tell us something about the extent to which her friend can change the rules in reality. And we learn this by exploiting his apparent 'temporary' limitation in the light of what should be permanent consequences.

(BTW, the other way to look at this: Her friend can make permanent or at least longer lasting change to perception of inanimate objects to maintain a reality that is consistent with the results of his previous changes to human perceptions. I don't like the sound of that because it seems to violate his temporary limitation, but it is an alternate explanation that is consistent I think with why Beth might see the stick as unburned henceforth). That would mean he can make some longer lasting changes.)


Heh, actually it was originally posted to this thread, then paraphrased in the other, and once again returned to here. Wink These multiple discussion threads are getting confusing.

Another reason why I don't buy that the stick appearing unburnt as a question of perception is chaos theory. It would require huge amounts of processing power in order to even consider the affects that those sticks would have on the rest of the "world". The released gasses would have to be tracked, and perceptions altered by their paths, so would the decay of the sticks into the indefinite future. I am still a fan of the typical "matrix" idea, that he is affecting the virtual world in which everyone inhabits. Otherwise the complexity of the process is astronomical.

AnthraX101

EDIT: And in addition, consider what happens when someone steps on said stick? It gets even more complicated, because you are not simply saying "you are seeing/feeling something different", then you are actualy moving differently. That little distance you moved when you stepped on a whole stick is now diffrent then the space you moved where the stick was burned off. No longer are your movements in sync with the real world. An entire virtual world would have to be created just to deal with your tiny differences in movement. And everyone would begin to notice that you arn't exactly moving right in the real world, necessitating that they too become part of the "virtual world". It's way too complex for me to imagine.
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 17, 2003 4:53 pm
Last edited by AnthraX101 on Tue Nov 18, 2003 12:59 am; edited 2 times in total
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trip
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Omnie wrote:
The AI dude says himself that there is no difference between Beth's perception of the house and its "reality," because the reality is defined by her perception. So, taking how he made the fire "actually" cold since it didn't burn anything...what he could have done was make it so that Beth would not see/feel anything burn, and would experience no effects of the burning.


I think you're trying to combine two different theories, but in my opinion, you still end up with the theory that he's changing reality. (Of course I mean reality in the sense of what's happening inside the matrix.)

Theory 1: AI man is changing Beth's perception, NOT actually reality itself. (This can be done to an individual or to a small area.) That means that the fire feels cold to those within AI man's sphere of influence, but in reality, the fire is indeed hot. I would think that if this is the case, items thrown into the cold fire would actually burn, even though others in the area would feel that the fire was cold.

Theory 2: AI man is actually changing reality itself, not simply the perception of reality. In other words, he is RECODING and changing the rules of the matrix within a certain area for a limited amount of time. This means that he's actually changing the properties of the fire (so the fire doesn't feel cold, nor does it burn).

So, with Theory 2, you can argue "what is the difference between perception and reality," but the fact is that if he were ONLY changing Beth's perception, then the fire would still be hot in reality. If he were actually changing the physical properties of the fire itself, then both Beth's perception of reality and reality itself have been changed. Yes, he is altering Beth's perception, but that is because he is altering reality.

Omnie wrote:
If he did that, then you can't argue that the objects really burned, because...according to who? Who saw them burn? There is no proof.


Like Anthrax pointed out, items placed on the fire weren't burned. Of course, the AI man could have altered both Beth's perception of the heat of the fire, as well as her perception of the items themselves.

However, at some point his enchantment would end and the items would be sitting there, burned, because they were placed in a fire that is hot in reality.

Interested to see if some of you have different thoughts...
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 17, 2003 4:56 pm
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joebrent
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Quote:
Like Anthrax pointed out, items placed on the fire weren't burned. Of course, the AI man could have altered both Beth's perception of the heat of the fire, as well as her perception of the items themselves.


If he changed the thermal properties of the fire, he wouldn't have needed to change her perception of it, it would have been redundant. Could someone ask her if she has her own GPS or if she's getting info from AI Man? That would settle this whole thing.

And don't tell me AI Man's just changing the properties of the GPS monitor, I don't even want to go there.

PostPosted: Mon Nov 17, 2003 5:00 pm
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Omnie
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[edit] Never mind, I didn't see everyone else respond first...this post isn't here.

PostPosted: Mon Nov 17, 2003 5:04 pm
Last edited by Omnie on Mon Nov 17, 2003 5:06 pm; edited 1 time in total
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xnbomb
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Where Beth Was

joebrent wrote:
Could someone ask her if she has her own GPS or if she's getting info from AI Man? That would settle this whole thing.

And don't tell me AI Man's just changing the properties of the GPS monitor, I don't even want to go there.

I think someone did ask, and the answer was he provided her with the coordinates.

Not that it matters ... if he wanted to fool her in that way, he seems to have immense control over digital devices. He doesn't need to play with the satellite beacon signals or anything, just mess with the IC in the GPS.
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 17, 2003 5:05 pm
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aheffel
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Yeah, I asked her that. She said that he simply told her at which coordinates they were at any given time.
*pats self on back*
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 17, 2003 5:36 pm
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Flynn
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Have to agree with Trip (and abandon my previously cherished perception theory Evil or Very Mad ). The evidence from the fire experiment seems fairly conclusive to me. Ah well, back to the drawing board....

PostPosted: Mon Nov 17, 2003 5:46 pm
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niobexrev
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Could it be that this guy is just pulling all our chains? Maybe this guy was the one standing behind the tree. Then Beth was afraid all these events might be hoaxes. Now of course she's not. But maybe he's got some special illusionist tricks and a little bit of some kind of hypnosis tricks to temporarily change her perception of the world around her.

What if this dude is actually Jesse?

Well, I felt like reaching. Seriously, I actually said to myself, "How far out can I make a possibility." This is my attempt. I know it's probably wrong, or the right answer could be something in between this theory and other theories.
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 17, 2003 6:08 pm
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Sunny du Pree
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Joined: 01 Jan 2003
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surfloser wrote:
hey guys just had another stoopid idea
has anyone thought that maybe beth is part of the system, a sort of program like apu from the train station?!
this would explain why she just goes back to work she is weirded out by the events(maybe research and development at metacrotex is the branch that monitors and fixes glyches)
she is trying to understand the WHY of something not the HOW of it.
just a thought maybe i had to much ramen soup.


I had wild speced earlier that I thot that maybe SHE was the AI so I know where you are coming from dood. There is a likely chance that she is but then you gotta explain how the others are seeing the whomps as well and why?
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 17, 2003 9:10 pm
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Styles
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Update in Beth's log:

Quote:
Tuesday
03:31

Well, what a day! What a Monday (well, technically, it's Tuesday)! I canít believe that I was so tired this morning that I thought it was Sunday. I suppose thatís the danger of having a nap instead of a full nightís sleep. The days blur together, marked only by the changing light. Perhaps I can blame it on not going to work? I didnít go to bed until the sun was nearly up and I sat there replaying the previous day in my head far too long. However, during that time, I came to an understanding of his purpose. It seemed so obvious that I was surprised that I missed it. There were so many little hints and mentions of it and all the talk of memory.

I discussed it with him in the morning. He agreed. He is a Garbage Collector, responsible for memory recycling. His malfunction began, as near as I can tell, about two years ago. He spent months unaware of his purpose, knowing only that he could affect various subsystems. His logical abilities allowed him to test his skills, but the lack of imagination or intuition prohibited him from gaining a basic understanding of his purpose. As suggested by several people, a few tests on his ability to solve puzzles of various types and difficulties showed that is still the case, which makes sense considering his purpose.

As a GC, his challenge lies in knowing what systems or objects are live. As such an advanced program, I cannot fathom how this is determined. He is unable to communicate this ability with me.

One thing that I was able to determine through a round of tests was that he is only able to affect systems within his line of site. This was frustrating at first as I was determined to prove a distance. Yet the distance varied. It was further complicated because our line of site varied slightly. Thanks to a number of people for suggesting this. Yet it has brought up new questions. Is this his design or is it part of his malfunction? Would he travel to various locations constantly? Does he remain in one region? If thatís the case, are their others like him? Would they be available to help determine where, why, how he is broken?

Furthermore, any effect that he had was extremely localized, usually no more than a dozen feet or so across. One of the complications to this was the idea of perception. I recalled an instance where the stars and moon were removed from the night sky. Oneís view of the sky is far greater than several yards. How was this possible? The answer lied in the fact that the sky was affected based on ones location on the ground. When he recreated the effect, it was only visible from a small location. If I moved out of the campsite, the stars were clearly visible. At least they were until the clouds returned. This begs the question of how to differentiate between perception and reality. Where does one end and the other begin?

As shown yesterday, any affect that he had was temporary in nature. Does this mean that system processes are constantly monitored for changes with inappropriate changes corrected? If so, the root system must be incredibly massive in order to handle so many processes.

Understanding his design has helped to explain why he hasnít been able to recreate or move sound (and other similar objects), which had troubled me the night before. Certainly, I thought, something with the power to change the weather (stop the wind) and affect fire to the point where it did not burn could create a little sound effect. As a GC, he is responsible for removing or overwriting objects, not creating them. To test this line of reasoning, I had him remove processes and then try to return them to their previous state. This did not occur. Instead the process returned to its previous state at irregular intervals, which I believe is do to a protection process in the greater system. That begs the question, how complex is this system? How many other types of programs are there? Have I been in contact with other programs?

It is almost too difficult to comprehend the larger picture here. It was a fascinating, though long, day. The existential questions are just too much, as intriguing as they may be. I donít believe that Iím supposed to know how to comprehend the answers that I fear I may be faced with. I hope that Iíll be able to sleep tonight.

The plans for tomorrow include: discover why he does this, how is he broken, and can he be fixed.


PostPosted: Tue Nov 18, 2003 8:44 am
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Ehsan
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Why doesn't beth find it weird that her whole reality has collapsed?? She seems very calm in the log.. talking about programs and objects and just taking it all for granted..

At least now we have a new for our AI friend.. GC!!

PostPosted: Tue Nov 18, 2003 8:56 am
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surfloser
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yea my head isnt going to blow up now!
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 18, 2003 9:04 am
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ArchGod
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Alright, so this explains his purpose. I think we should tell her not to try and find any other programs like him because she might stumble upon agents. Although, finding a program like him could prove usefull.
It looks more and more like we are going to get a Beth to unplug herself, or at least find someone else to unplug her. I think this would be the time that a bunch of us start putting forth ideas about the world. One person put forth the Matrix idea and a bunch of people give other ideas. That would not give in to the idea that we know what is going on, but that we ourselves are still curious. Since she knows it isn't real, and that it is just a program, lets build off of that. We should designate the person to say the Matrix idea. But other ideas could be "brains in a vat idea". Anothe r idea is that we are all connected to virtual reality machines and this is just a virtual vacation programmed into our memories that we paid for. This time passes very quickly in the real world (Total Recall). Something like that. So when do you all talk to her via AIM? I am always checking and she is never on.
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 18, 2003 9:16 am
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surfloser
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try yahoo messenger
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 18, 2003 9:27 am
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