[imbri]

Lewis the Second wrote:

Edit: Rose, what's with the attitude?

I wholehearted support Rose and her attitude. She has every right to it and, frankly, has many reasons to have it. I have to be honest and admit that I feel similarly. Having spoken with others on the matter, I know that we are not alone with those feelings. Despite those feelings, or perhaps because of them, we can use this thread as the author intended it. Well, not to serve his ego, but to constructively point out the errors of what he has done so as to help others not make those same mistakes.

Rose wrote:

Quote: I have quite proudly transformed my failed attempt into a learning experience, not only for myself, but also for all of you out there. We don't need this learning experience, thanks very much. If you had read the multitude of post here about grassroots games and taken them seriously you would know that.

This is where I feel differently. Obviously we do need to transform this into a learning experience because, no matter how many posts are made on the subject, someone feels that they are exempt from the advice, that they are better. Perhaps this time someone will heed the advice. Perhaps seeing it fresh from the eyes of a PM that failed will make a difference. At this point, I'd be pleased if it caused just one person to rethink their plans and feel that it would be worth it.

So, please, before this thread dissolves, which it has the great potential to do, let's make an attempt at being constructive.

[Fellow PM for another ARG]

Good try, Bobby.

I myself am a sole PM for an ongoing ARG with a budget of $0. Like you I am also fifteen. (I won't reveal which ARG though). Like you, all I had before creating my game was some writing talent, big dreams, some skills, and a magazine article.

For me, it was the PCGAMER UK article about ARGs recently.

Luckily, I still am able to continue my game.

[konamouse]

Quick, some established/experienced PM, pick this kid up for your writing team. Bobby, your letter was a pleasure to read. Shows maturity and style beyond your years.

You have ideas, you have knowledge, you have talent. You just need to get the experience in a group environment so you have the help (and the proofreading to avoid the holes in your websites that led back to your parents, or to existing domains/companies).

And thank you for realizing your weaknesses before the trailhead got too deep (or your folks threatened to cut off your internet access).

/me believes in constructive criticism.

[Lewis the Second]

The thing with PMing a game is that you have to be aware, right from the start, that over the course of the run of your game, it's going to take over your life. For most of the time, you're literally not going to be able to do anything else. I think it's a shame that you launched hastily without thinking about that, leading to a promising game that imploded within days, but hopefully this little mishap will ensure you think about when you launch your next game, and the circumstances under which you do so.

For what it's worth, any bitterness in the above post is solely due to the fact that this looked like one of the most promising ARGs in ages.

Edit: Rose, what's with the attitude?

[colin]

Ehsan wrote:

we need a filtering mechanism... If Bobby had such an authority to turn to, they would have offered him proper advice and maybe even teamed him up with someone else who has time to follow up on boards but not enough good content. Otherwise he would've published it "independently" by aiming hkdl and people can choose whether to play it or not knowing that it's not on "the list".

A filter mechanism would be good, and I would like to see someone(many) try to do it. On the other hand we have the ability to provide advice, for that see my post here

[Ehsan]

go easy on the guy rose I won't blame anyone for trying if they actually put an effort into it, which this guy did.

i've said it before and i'll say it again

we need a filtering mechanism. There are crappy movies and grassroots bands and stuff and wannabe novels on the internet. But the industry filters out things because they want to make money, and that gives you quality control. Yeah it's not perfect, for example movies sell-out to action to get more audience, but at least you're not watching a 15 minutes home video shot with a handycam in the cinema.

It's not that hard. Nominate 5 members of the community to approve ARG's that would go on a "now playing" list. You don't have to be on the list to start a game (i.e. independent artists) but you would certinally get more exposure (i.e. billboard top 10) and people can CHOOSE which games they want to play.

Send in a freelance article for publication to reader's digest and you would probably get very good feedback on why it was rejected, so that you can go back to the drawing board and work on your methods.

If Bobby had such an authority to turn to, they would have offered him proper advice and maybe even teamed him up with someone else who has time to follow up on boards but not enough good content. Otherwise he would've published it "independently" by aiming hkdl and people can choose whether to play it or not knowing that it's not on "the list".

However, if he had only set-up a blogger account and ask for help I would've had a very different opinion...

[rose]

um. I disagree.

[imbri]

I will join in with the others in giving you kudos for standing up and owning your work. I will also recognize and show appreciation for the warnings that you provide others. Like you, I hope that this can serve others thinking it'd be a kick to throw together a game. Hopefully they can learn from some of your mistakes, much as you have.

I'll throw in a few other thoughts, and these apply to all games...

A single person should not attempt to make a game. I don't care how great you think you are, you are not great enough to put together a complete game on your own. Look at the credits of the vast majority of games. With the larger efforts, you see dozens of names. With the better grassroots games you see at least 5 to 10 and for each of those 5-10 there were friends and family members offering enormous amounts of support and inspiration. In looking over the vast majority of failed efforts, it sticks out that many of them were thrown together by just one person. It doesn't surprise me.

Three months development time is just not enough! Especially when you are doing this as a part time effort with no experience in creating such an experience. I don't care if you're 15 or 30... if you have other commitments and little to no previous experience, you need time to really consider what you are doing. You need weeks to mull over various aspects of the game and story design. The first effort that I worked on took 9 months and, while several of those months were relatively dead, it took that long to research and write the story, to learn the technologies we needed to tell that story, to figure out the mechanics behind the game design. And that was with an entire development team working on it, some with pretty decent experience (prof. writers, programmers, actors, and people with tons of experience in writing RPG scenarios).

You are right that when you are a PM you are making a commitment. However, I think that the commitment that you make with yourself comes well after the one that you make with your players. And you failed to recognize that you have a commitment to all others in the community - not just with your players. Your game and whether it succeeds or fails is noticed by potential players and who knows who else. Every failure hurts, no matter how graceful it is. It hurts those peaking in for the first time, it hurts those returning after a hiatus, it hurts those researching the genre, it hurts the others working on games. It hurts because it causes every potential player and every potential investor to question the validity of the next game they see.

As for someones first ARG almost always failing... what a bunch of hogwash written to appease those that failed. In looking at the best PMs out there, I can say without a doubt that their first game was successful. It's not surprising, either. They are successful because they don't jump into something without thinking it through, they know to put the time and energy into it and, furthermore, they understand the commitment that it takes. Don't let yourself buy into the idea that first games fail. Don't use that as an excuse for poor development or to enable yourself to not follow through with what you start.

When creating a game and looking at what former PMs have said, usually in post game chats and whatnot, take their words to heart. I have never once heard a PM say that a game took less time than they thought it would or that it was easier than they thought that it would be. Every time, despite the numerous times it has been mentioned, the PMs mention just how consuming it is to be on the other side of the curtain. If you think it takes a lot to be on the player side of things... multiply that by a fair number and you might begin to touch on the time and energy it takes to be on the otherside of the curtain. It is not something that should be entered into lightly.

Bobby, thanks for opening this dialogue. Hopefully the potential PMs out there will help make the legacy of GypsySoft something greater by taking the lessons in this thread to heart. Hopefully we can also put an end to coddling failed efforts with trite words and bad cliches. Hopefully, with your lead, we can move forward with honest and constructive criticism to help us all make better games for the community to enjoy.

-b

[joebrent]

Wow, good for you, Bobby. And I can see you do indeed have writing talent. Live to fight another day, man.

[C_Brennan]

You may have "blown it" on the game, but damn man... you did the following:

-Put work into the thing.
-Thought it through.
-Had a story ready.
-Different from normal launch.
-And you willingly acknowledged that you couldn't handle it by yourself, came forward to announce that you would not be continuing (which takes mucho guts) and even wrote up a super long post-mortem that acknowledged why you decided to kill it, where you failed, and what you would try to do better with next time.

So even for a failure, you're 100% more respectable than the other failures. And, I think many people here will say that if you PM something in the future, you now have the experience of how hard it can be behind the scenes but you learned from your mistakes and you will make it next time with no problems.

So, in conclusion, you are 100% more respectable than the other games that fail, and you get two thumbs up for having guts. That says alot.

[zeldafan8626]

Wow, well all I can really say is you did your best, things didn't work out how you planned and that's fine because you made alot of hype and had alot of people really wanting to play (which is a good thing even if you had to drop it).

All I have left to offer you is my blessing for your next game and an invite to join mine ;D

kay... that was cheesy... bai

[Abbot_Beryl]

GypsySoft Post-Mortem by the PM