[October]

I found Jane McGonigal's recent comment on the ARGN article about prank marketing to be relevant to this discussion and wanted to share it.

Quote:

I’m always reminded of what Sean Stewart said back in the A.I./Cloudmaker days about all of the hype that ARGs were blurring the line between reality and fiction in a way that might unwittingly deceive or fool people. I believe he said (as direct quote-y as I can recall): “Dude, we’re talking about sex robots from the future. If you think it’s real, that’s not our problem.” I always thought that having an ARG be not even remotely plausible was part of the ethos of making them. You don’t want to fool anyone, you want to make it easy for people to pretend they’re fooled.

I know no one has been discussing this for a month, but I really do agree with what Jane has to say here. I have to deal with my "real life" on a regular basis. When I play a game, I want to know with absolute certainty that it's not real. Knowing that a game is not real does not mean that players can't get attached to characters or immersed in the world. I remember playing Sammeeeees II and being totally immersed; players of Eldritch Errors are, I think, STILL immersed (DavFlamerock, I'm looking at you), and it's on hiatus!

Some players get so involved with a game (that they know is not real) that they feel guilt at not spending as much time as they think they should playing/watching/interacting with an ARG and its population of characters. As a new player, I felt that guilt when I had to take a break from Sammeeeees II due to some real-life problems that came up! I mean, if someone got up to get a sandwich in the middle of Mildred's seance, or while we were running through the Temple of Mithras and slamming the portals closed behind us, I don't know about it! And I'm sure that other players of other intense games can come up with 50 gazillion other similar examples. On the flipside, puppetmasters know (or should know) that players have real lives to contend with, and that sometimes you just need a sandwich. And they design with that in mind (or they should).

As for characters... the same applies. Knowing that a character is not "real" doesn't meant that players cannot form a deep attachment to that character. Again, using EE and Sammeeeees for examples, I know players who were deeply saddened and disturbed at the death of some (well-written) characters in the games, and in the case of SamII, players went out of their way to make SURE that one character DID NOT DIE.

Success of an ARG, in my opinion, lies in great storytelling - good writing, and, if you have live actors, good acting. Good presentation. All of the other experienced players and designers in this thread have made excellent points on these subjects that I don't need to repeat, but I feel that the bottom line is that you don't have to "fool" people to make a memorable, exciting game. You have to make them want to believe.

[PinkCloud]

Silent|AWAY wrote:

Even when you know all the bad consquences of hoaxes, and even when you realize you'll need distance, I still can't help but believe you can't really be immersed in the world if you know it's fake

Don't you get immersed in movies or books? According to the concept of the "willing suspension of disbelief" we temporarily suspend the knowledge of the story and characters etc. being fake. I believe that we need to know the boundary between real and fiction to be able to enjoy fiction. I do think the idea of a fictional/fake incident posing as real is intriguing, but I think that the time until we find out about it must be rather short for us to enjoy.

[krystyn]

Eh, I suppose if you were experiencing a single-player ARG, that would definitely be the case where you could experience the sort of detachment you describe, Silent.

However, most of the stronger ARGs have had a strong community/hivemind component to them - where the puzzle-crackers in the group fall short, the social engineers rush in, etc.

Even after all these years, I am afraid I still can't see the appeal of a true hoax as being automagically more enjoyable than a more 'traditional' ARG (IOW, one more obvious about its boundary set).

Because at the end of the day, it doesn't matter how much I consent to an experience if the hoax bleeds into the environment of other people in my real life who have not consented. And I think that's the problem when people talk about 'pushing the envelope' of game design - it is essential for the designer to consider the needs of the game environment itself, and its occupants. In the ginormous Venn diagram of life, the circle of ARG players is placed inside the biiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiig circle of All Humans, after all.

Just think about all the times ARG players have gotten in 'trouble' with their families over their phones ringing at a weird time or with strange, possibly threatening callers on the other end (usually recorded, but still: TEDDY STILL CREEPS ME OUT, Y'ALL).

That same phone call without boundaries could potentially cause more issues if it's not as explainable. If you're immersing yourself to that extent as a player, you'd sort of have to bring along everyone else. That phone call might not even have come from the original designer - game-jacking can be a fairly serious issue when the jacker goes beyond vague trolling or power-tripping.

Anyway.

[Silent|AWAY]

I like the concept of the Real ARG, i.e, the Hoax. It is only because I just feel that regular, traditional ARGs just doesn't seem right to me. An analogy:

Thomas: "Alien forces are coming in to attack my city! You gotta help me, ARGie. You're our only hope."
ARGie: "I'll save you. In a little bit though. I gotta go get me a sub sandwhich. BRB."
Thomas: "WAIT!"

Even when you know all the bad consquences of hoaxes, and even when you realize you'll need distance, I still can't help but believe you can't really be immersed in the world if you know it's fake, and you know that, at any moment, you can tell that character being held hostage by KBG agents that you'll be away on vacation to the Bahamas, and thus can't break the binary puzzle this week.

[Agent Lex]

Quick linkage for those who don't scour N&R...

http://forums.unfiction.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=28504

[konamouse]

RoninBK wrote:

I'm one of the people who thinks the rules are strengthened when someone pushes the envelop and feels out how much resistance it gives.

Not to beat a dead horse, but uF is a place with certain rules (ToS) about separation between uF and the gameverse. It is designed to be a safely outside the game. Pushing those kinds of boundaries in here is the same as going into someone else's home and sleeping in their bed without permission, or walking through their living room with muddy shoes. You just don't do that in a polite, respectful community. You follow the rules of the homeowner or you just don't come inside.

Please find envelopes outside of uF to stretch the story or the game play.

[Ironically, only just yesterday I listened to the podcast with "Martin". Interesting to have a perspecting of knowing the truth when hearing it for the first time.]

[RoninBK]

What an interesting time to wander back into the ARG community...

I'm one of the people who thinks the rules are strengthened when someone pushes the envelop and feels out how much resistance it gives. Granted I much prefer it when someone else is the one smacking themselves against the boundaries instead of myself, and in that respect I thank Martin Aggett wholeheartedly for dying for the sins of PM's everywhere. But seriously, on the whole I consider this to be a healthy discussion, and the ARG community is better off for having the object lesson.

One question though. Let's say after years of having fun on this board as RoninBK. I suddenly decide I'm masochistic to try to run one of these things. Let's assume I'm an otherwise good boy, and never touch my own game's thread on UF. But if I were to create a character in my game named "Ronin BlackKnight," would I be running afoul of the ToS?

[Rogi Ocnorb]

It's not common. But, more common than you'd think.
It's not reported often due to the ethical impacts and a desire to keep the 2nd kid in the dark about their "purpose" in life.

Usually it's for cord blood or marrow. But it could be for a kidney.

Here's a particularly interesting case given the bioengineering involved beforehand.
http://guanabee.com/2008/10/spanish-baby-engineered-to-cure-brother


"I ought never to act except in such a way that I can also will that my maxim should become a universal law."
I. Kant

ETA: Actually Kant's Kingdom of Ends formula applies quite well to this discussion.

[Nighthawk]

Like *that* ever happens...

[catherwood]

The idea of creating a character and fleshing it out into a "real" persona, with the intention of repurposing it for use in an ARG, sounds similar to a parent conceiving and giving birth to a second child just because they need an organ donor for their first child.

[Varin]

konamouse wrote:

TINAG is a rule for the characters, not the players. We know it's a GAME (well, we should know, so we don't call REAL police to report crimes).

Such a good point. I wonder, if Martin had twittered an emergency 'help me' message, how many of us would take it seriously and how many would suddenly suspect he was a character? He travels the world taking photographs. If he had said he had been arrested in a foreign country, would our ARG feelers tingle or would we think it was another case like James Karl Buck?

[Coal]

imbri wrote:

Coal wrote: I am not looking for argument, I mean no offence. I am merely interested in debating the issue. I apologise for the disclaimer, but one has to be careful on UF, an argument can be suicide here. I'm sorry that you feel that you need to make a disclaimer or that you've lost your trust in our ability to have a discussion.

It's just sometimes people on the internet like to make things personal, and the way I write can be quite abrasive.

[imbri]

imbri wrote:

(In regard to people having fronts) There's nothing altogether wrong with that. It's just that nobody likes it.

Coal wrote:

That is your opinion, not fact.

Of course. For the most part, everything that I write on unfiction is nothing more than my opinion. I didn't realize I needed to clarify that. Additionally, words like "nobody" imply that it is nothing more than a trumped up statement to support an opinion. Plus, as everyone knows, I would never use such language and am always clear in my intent. You can ask anybody. They all know.

Coal wrote:

Coal is not my real name, so is that immoral of me? A name on a forum can be the basis of a persona. Martin/Steve seem to be very similar people if you ask me, so does it matter who he really is? The real question seems to be more related to the fact that he was going to break the forum rules and launch an ARG off the back of his 'front' (no pun intended).

Exactly, as I have posted somewhere a few posts back, there is a difference between characters and personas. The difference between Coal and Martin is that, well, Coal is a persona and Martin is a character. And, unlike Steve, you are not using the relationships that you develop here under Coal to flesh out a fictional story.

Coal wrote:

I am not looking for argument, I mean no offence. I am merely interested in debating the issue. I apologise for the disclaimer, but one has to be careful on UF, an argument can be suicide here.

I'm sorry that you feel that you need to make a disclaimer or that you've lost your trust in our ability to have a discussion. I can't speak for others round these parts, but I quite enjoy discussions and especially enjoy them when there are differing view points. If I was only interested in people that reflected my point of view, I'd just use a mirror.

[krystyn]

Coal wrote:

If the 'character' exists on the UF forums and people believe it to be a 'real' person and never find out that it is a front...then no harm done, on the internet people can be whoever they like.

Here's the problem:

Ultimately, and especially in this specific environment of Unfiction, it weakens the narrative.

People come to this place to immerse themselves in a good yarn told across multiple platforms. Many of these platforms are well-suited to the idea of playing with the boundaries of reality.

It was fun for me to answer a payphone and talk to a broken AI and sing to her, and then drive home afterwards and look up at the sky and suddenly feel the enormousness of the universe and what was 'going' to happen to Earth in approximately 550 years. I don't have a problem with immersion, and I love a good story. I love characters that are fully-realized, and I like when I feel that little frisson of excitement when I can see that shimmer and blur of where the game world is weaving itself in and out of my everyday life.

The whole world becomes a gigantic game board, and I have choices and I feel a sense of wonder and I am seeking out others who have shared this experience in some way, so that we may all move forward together.

Here at the Unforums, my expectation is that my fellow community members are people who also do not know what's coming next. They are truly sharing my wonder and speculation, they are NOT Puppetmasters playing their own game because their design is not strong enough to allow the community to thrive and succeed on their own within the game world.

When the narrative is weakened like this, when a Puppetmaster steps outside of the game boundaries and is convinced that the game can only be played by playing it herself in some way, it is either the thing that kills the game, or one of the truest signs that the game design itself is deeply flawed, and it has now become almost a sure thing that the ARG will implode.

It is not only We, The Players, that expect to trust the Puppetmasters who have created cross-media narratives for our edification. The Puppetmasters need to trust US -- that we are willing, we are capable. That this apparent *need* to work from the inside is simply a fear on the Puppetmaster's part, or an easy crutch in place of strong design.

So, back in the day, during the Beast, there were characters/entities referred to as Dalangs (by implication of a password puzzle) - Indonesian puppeteers. And I suppose that's the inspiration for referring to the people that make/run ARGs as 'Puppetmasters.'

But see, the Dalangs are not holding strings that connect to the players' limbs - yours or mine. Or even to the limbs of 'created' sockpuppet players (during the Beast, the creators took special care to stay out of the player space, so this was not an issue). The Dalangs are maneuvering the narrative itself, shaping it, working it, weaving it, trusting it to hold on its own.

They are not, in other words, telling the story from the stage, and then running to the audience and clapping with delight at the words. The feedback loop would be shattered.

Shattered. Especially here, with the guidelines that are currently in place.

Puppetmasters who feel their trust in the players slipping need to step back and look at their own game, again. They need to tighten their narrative, explore the options of conflict between characters, make puzzles easier or harder, use a different background color on a website, make a geocache, use a spellchecker, or see the campaign through to its end instead of simply walking away.

Trust us, the players. As temporary passengers in the game world, there is incredible potential for wonder and community in our numbers. To step in and sit amongst us means that we've all stopped really playing.

See also: Heisenberg Uncertainty Principle.

[konamouse]

Just my 2 cents about the TINAG.

TINAG is a rule for the characters, not the players. We know it's a GAME (well, we should know, so we don't call REAL police to report crimes). But the characters with whom we interact aren't suppose to know they are in a game. To them, this is real life.

Since we use uF to discuss the GAME, the characters should not be in here and should not refer to uF because in their version of RL, uF should not exist. If they knew of uF then why wouldn't they read it and find out that their lives are just a GAME. To avoid that paradox, uF is OOG and thus not part of the universe that the characters inhabit.

PMs often follow the game thread(s) but find ways outside of uF to solve problems that the players may be encountering - without posting within their own threads. Just ask labfly. Players in Sammeeeees had an issue that we were discussing in the thread. Within the context of the story one of the characters steered us towards a solution. And she did this without once coming into our chat room either (she never slept either, but that's a whole nother story).

Martin inhabiting uF is not appropriate for the ToS. Steve found that out and has removed the issue. Lesson learned and thank you for coming clean and stopping before it was too late.

Thank you for this interesting topic.