[FLmutant]

Re: GypsySoft Post-Mortem by the PM

[Rogi Ocnorb]

Re: GypsySoft Post-Mortem by the PM

[konamouse]

Jas0n wrote:

I'm curious about that as well, but -- for meta purposes - what ever happened to the PM who started this thread? Are they still PM'ing?

Last we saw, he was "picked up" by a PM team (unidentified). The original poster in this thread has not posted since 7/05.

[Jas0n]

I'm curious about that as well, but -- for meta purposes - what ever happened to the PM who started this thread? Are they still PM'ing?

[jjason]

Re: GypsySoft Post-Mortem by the PM

[SpaceBass]

Jas0n wrote:

...it's not like a straight chain, it's more like a web... if you're by yourself and you break - that's it... if you've got 8 or 9 supports and 3 or 4 break, you've still got several holding strong.

This is a great metaphor, and applies just as well to the player side of the equation.

Jas0n wrote:

(OH WOW - Just realized how long ago this thread was... sheesh)

A considered response, indeed.

[Will 2.0]

I believe that it's great to create ARG grassroot games. If you have a great story and innovative way to do it, it's a great way to do something you like. This form of entertainment is becoming increasingly popular.

I admit I did do 2 games with a very small team or two or three, both times I was left by myself. I did learn from my own experiences and that's really what it's about. practice makes perfect. Not all of us are skilled enough to get it right first shot.

I talk with jason somewhat frequently and I completely agree with him. Grassroots games should be praised for what they are. Simple, creative art.

[Jas0n]

I spoke with one aspiring PM last night in regards to his/her desire to develop a game from the ground up by themselves, and the fact that he/she saw the veterans within the community as extremely vocal against him/her getting a start in developing a game. Most of the apprehension came from this thread as they saw what they assumed was hostility against new PMs.

How I explained this is fom a point of "vast" experience with dealing with this community as a PM. I say vast and I put it in quotes because I'm still a noob developer, but I've had my taste of both sides of the fence on this issue and at points it felt like I got more than my share of the taste - (I am not complaining at all).

From my experience there is not a hostility against new and inexperienced developers producing a grassroots game for an audience with the goal of entertaining said audience. This community loves games that are put together with a good bit of thought and determination to conclude the game and the story encompassed in the game. What irks many in the community is when a game comes out and the developer realizes they got in over their head (for whatever reason) and kill the game off.

To me the majority of the games that fail FEEL as if they're being developed by someone who is vain and is looking to make a name for themselves, to see their name in highlights and to show off for their friends. They look at this and think they can do it, then they jump into it. This was similar to how I approached the game, less for getting my name into highlights - more for just thinking "this is easy and I can do it better than they can." The individual I was talking to was planning on developing a game by themselves and I explained how that was a mistake.

The biggest mistake I faced when developing a game by myself was the fact that I could not do all the work I needed to do and as players began becoming disinterested in some of the puzzles I slapped together quickly to fill space while I worked my butt off on other aspects of the game, I became disinterested. This eventually led to me terminating the game because I couldn't spend 14 hours a day developing puzzles and content.

They then told me that they saw a PM team as only as strong as the weakest link and I had to dig up more of my personal experience. I developed the game Ny Takma in 2006 and it was my first opportunity to work on developing a game with a team. We were able to get content developed more easily than when I was solo. I was able to get more types of content because there was a vast knowledge base around me that I could pull from, various experiences and whatnot. When I started to feel a little burnt out, someone else would step up and give that extra nudge to keep everything going strong. It was amazing working with so many people who had such vast experience with so many things. The key to this though is finding the right people that will help and not hinder. With the same game we had 3 or 4 staff members which pretty much idled in the group and didn't do much, but some that wanted to claim they did everything... I used this as the example that you're able to do a good job with a team even with some weak links. You're stronger for all your strong links --- it's not like a straight chain, it's more like a web... if you're by yourself and you break - that's it... if you've got 8 or 9 supports and 3 or 4 break, you've still got several holding strong.

From my own perspective my first game was a huge mistake for how to approach developing a game. I saw myself as my best resource and I refused to have other people in the group that might give away answers to puzzles. I was paranoid on that aspect. I can say that this game was a huge learning experience and that if I did not fail at that game I probably would not still be in the community (because in order for me to have never failed on that game I would never have created it).

I'm personally not going to try to diminish anybody's attempts at creating a game. I've been there and I screwed up too. I really think everyone who has interest in developing a game should do what they can to get a game developed. I do, however, think that more caution should be taken by these potential developers to avoid failing their audience.

I suggest to everyone who wants to develop a game, to follow the many suggestions the community has given throughout the years... a small preview:

1. Do not develop a game by yourself (few have succeeded many have failed)

2. Prepare yourself for what's to come. You will be spending a lot of time developing content for the game.

3. Get a good team, find people with motivation and dedication for the genre and not just people that want their name in the spotlight.

4. Be patient, some launch methods (such as the one described by the original poster) take some time to get noticed and may not immediately impact the community... some puzzles take some time to solve...

5. Let the game be natural. The most important thing for storytelling through a game is to let things unfold naturally. Don't have a 50 year old farmer suddenly be sending hex codes to players, find a reason for everything... Why does the character do this, why does this happen in the story, why do we want this to happen.

-------

That's a small preview. If you're looking to get involved in developing a game, I sure hope you take the time to do it right, and if you fail - learn from your mistakes and build yourselves back up. There's a lot of stories out there waiting to be told and just as many games waiting to be made. I wish you all the best of luck and an understanding of why the many within the community get disheartened when aspiring PMs fail.


(OH WOW - Just realized how long ago this thread was... sheesh)

[addlepated]

Phaedra wrote:

I'm sorry, Addlepated, I assumed everyone had seen the trailers on TV by now. I have spoilered it.

Heh, it's ok, I don't get out much. We need a toadstool smiley.

[krystyn]

UV lamps for this many people is going to be expensive.

[rose]

The next steps

[Phaedra]

addlepated wrote:

Phaedra wrote: But we'd all seen the previews. Kristen Rutherford saw it before there were previews and in response to Ozy_y2k's review wrote: GAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAH! Warn a girl about movie spoilers next time?? Somehow I'd managed not to see any spoilers for The Island until just now.

I'm sorry, Addlepated, I assumed everyone had seen the trailers on TV by now. I have spoilered it.

[oliverkeers13]

Guess who is now not going to see a film that they wanted to see and successfully managed to evade all spoilers until now?

ME!!!
YOU CAN SPOILER QUOTES!
The thing that gets me angry, Phaedra, is that the quote says that the film was spoilt by giving away too much info in the advertising. THis quote, seemingly from another topic, while necessary to express your point, has, in effect, snuck up on people and ruined their enjoyment of the film.
I'm sorry if this seems aggressive, but you really pissed me off!!!!

[addlepated]

Phaedra wrote:

But we'd all seen the previews. Kristen Rutherford saw it before there were previews and in response to Ozy_y2k's review wrote:

GAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAH!

Warn a girl about movie spoilers next time??

Somehow I'd managed not to see any spoilers for The Island until just now.

[Phaedra]

krystyn wrote:

That's ... not very immersive. I wish I had a better solution, though.

Flidget Jerome wrote:

I could see this eventually turning into a trailer-type thing, though. How many trailers have you seen that were a lot more fun than their movies?

I think these two quotes hit on the main problems, but there's another one I see.

As much as I hate the movie The Forgotten, I would have hated it less if I hadn't seen a trailer that gave away all the "surprise" plot reveals in the first 3/4 of the movie.

A lot of people said that The Island was predictable.

But we'd all seen the previews. Kristen Rutherford saw it before there were previews and in response to Ozy_y2k's review wrote:

Kristen wrote:

Spoiler (Rollover to View): I told you, I told you, I told you! When I went to that event thingie or whatever - we didn't know ANYTHING about the story or the movie (except who was in it) and it was INTERESTING! AND COMPELLING! We couldn't figure out where they were! Or why they were talking a bit infantile at first -- so I was HELLA shocked when the previews started coming out and saying IT'S SCARLETT! IT'S EWAN! THEY'RE CLONES! Ummmmm I thought that was the MYSTERY of the MOVIE. My friend who worked on the costumes was shocked as well - I told her about the previews giving the whole "clone" thing away and she said - "um, but in the script that was the TWIST!". I then predicted the following: "This movie will 'suffer' thanks to marketing".

ARGs, to a large part, are about suspense. The community bonds, in part, by sharing the surprise at plot twists, by speculating about what it all means, by trying to predict what will happen next.

As I've said many times, there are many different types of puzzles in a good ARG, and one of them is the plot itself, the central question of "What is going on here?"

So, to extend the trailer analogy, I do worry about spoilers.[/spoiler]