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[quote="Ethernull"]Thanks for the feedback Addlepated, excellent points, all. Especially: [quote="addlepated"] While I understand your point, I think that stories in general benefit from less categorization rather than more. For example, I love the Dark Tower series by Stephen King, but in trying to explain its genre (fantasy/western/sci-fi) I've potentially alienated three separate groups ("Oh, I don't like westerns. I'll pass.") than if I were to say, "It's not easily defined, but the story and characters are gripping." Everyone understands a good story, but trying to label it further sets preconceived notions and prejudices into play. Most all stories have elements of two or more genres anyway.[/quote] That is, I believe, the best explanation of "Genre vs. Story" I have ever read.[/quote]
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MageSteff
Ethernull wrote:
Magestaff: I agree, it is the "appearance of player impact" that is important. Nothing wrong with letting them actually impact the story in areas though, it has worked very well in the past.
Again, I say as long as the PMs have made plans to allow for player impact and keep tight enough control that the game doesn't get out of their control, it is possible to give the players some choice. But if the PMs allow the players to take the game in a new direction,
one the PMs have not made plans for
, then the PMs are reacting with new story line and not following a set story arc. In my opinion that is asking for trouble.
In Orbital Colony, we had several places where, if we had the ability for a larger game than we ran, the Players would have had several areas they could have major impact on the visible game. Unfortunately we didn't have the manpower to allow those areas to blossom to their full potential, so we made the decision to keep them part of the background.
We know the players would have loved for us to allow them to go and explore those areas, unfortunately we were unable to let them go play in them. We wanted to have a larger game, but we also had to be realistic about what we could actually do - and had to stick to our story arc even though the players would have wanted something more. While that may have left the players wanting more, that control allowed us to really focus on the quality of the areas we did allow the players to play in. It's a trade off, quality vs. quantity, and sometimes, less is more.
Posted: Thu Mar 09, 2006 7:55 am
Ethernull
Oh, and my "Male vs. Female" disclaimer:
I agree 100% with what is being said about men and women liking the same things. I don't even believe that the distinction should be Male and Female. I just haven't found the right way to explain it so that game designers can see that there are more choices than first person shooters and myst-clones.
It seems that marketers, authors, game designers and movie makers all seem to start identifying their target audience by first choosing Male or Female because they "respond differently" or "think differently." Of course the really successful ones know the truth, that there are certain elements that if present, will draw both genders equaly.
Any suggestions for wording on that topic for the guide are welcome
Magestaff: I agree, it is the "appearance of player impact" that is important. Nothing wrong with letting them actually impact the story in areas though, it has worked very well in the past.
Posted: Wed Mar 08, 2006 1:58 pm
Ethernull
Excellent discussion!
GuyP, you brought up an interesting topic that I would like to pursue. "Who Is Benjamin Stove?" represents, to you and many others, a very focused game, as opposed to a broad all encompassing game, which is what most people seem to visualize when reading my original post.
Since the "Broad and all encompasing" game is already addressed by the tone of my first post, I would like to explore the "Tightly focused" game with the same system:
Multi-Layered Level of Play:
The game should be designed in such a way that it can be played by various levels of expertise.
• Lurkers/Browsers that prefer to play by observation follow the story line and plot as it develops and participate in the occasional discussion, interaction or speculation.
• Novice Players that want to contribute but have little experience in puzzles, internet detective work and ARG interactions. These players enjoy contributing to discussions, interacting with characters, finding new clues, speculating and working on less complex puzzles.
• Experienced players that can work on more complex puzzles, conduct extensive internet research and detective work, take action on speculation and theory as well as interact “in game” with characters.
• Expert players, often referred to as “Hard Core” or “Power Gamers” that work individually or in teams, create documentation, advise other players, solve extremely complex puzzles and codes, interact with characters on a regular and ongoing basis and chain together long trails of clues and information.
WIBS has all of the above skill levels playing comfortably together
Targeted Towards Both Genders:
A successful game should be aimed at both Male and Female audiences.
WIBS has both covered, as I'll point out further down, in the "Genre" section.
Multiple Sub-Stories across Genres:
Ideally, a game should tell layer storylines across different Genres and Themes, interlacing them with the main Plot. Horror, suspense, drama, mystery, romance, comedy, action and adventure can all be included in the same work, highlighting the primary Plot and Story Lines.
WIBS excels in this area. We have moments of comedy from tuckers posts, his personality, wording, phrasing and comfort offers us many an amused grin or chuckle. We have science fiction elements all over the place. Mystery and intrigue abound. We have mysterious strangers and men in black following Tucker and contacting his mother. We have a heartfelt and somewhat akward relationship between Tucker and his mother. Tucker builds action through his pacing, suspense through timing and description of his anticipation for the next box of letters, the revealing of information and his description of his feelings, thoughts, doubts, hopes and fears as he takes us on a shared journey. Sometimes all of these just in the experience of retelling a conversation.
Establish Boundaries:
WIBS covered this somewhat by the details in their domain registration, but it really only established boundary for more experience and informed ARGers. I personally feel that it falls short in establishing boundaries for players new to the Genre. That does'nt seem to be hurting it much though.
Trust the Player before asking for their Trust:
Before asking us to help him, Tucker shared his background, exposed aspects of his personality and confided his hopes and fears to whomever may be reading his blog. This apparent honesty and vulnerability disarms the player and sets them at ease. The player trusts that Tucker will treat them fairly, honestly, as equals and that he will continue to confide in them.
Accept Responsibility:
So far, so good for WIBS. It has delivered every promise it has made. Updates and interaction come on a regular basis. Player effort and discoveries are rewarded with the furthering of the plot and story. This concept s much harder to quantify, but I think we can safely say that WIBS has not acted irresponsibly.
Quality:
WIBS quality is excellent. The writing, the web design, the props; all top notch.
Interaction:
Plenty of interaction with multiple characters, as well as the various library drops.
Player Agency:
(the topic of much debate in this thread)
The various codes and puzzles of Benjamin Stove give players Agency. Tucker is "no good at puzzles" by his own admission. He needs the players in order to move forward. The players have Agency in various other errands and tasks as well, like the library pick-ups, translations and research that Tucker has "no idea" on, or "doesn'y know anyone" with that skillset.
The players appear to impact the world. They may not (and probably won't) change the story as planned by the design team, but the players actions and decisions are required for the telling of the story, or at least they *seem* to be to the players. The players beleive that they have agency. It is like asking a child if they want A or B for dinner. The child doesn't have so much control that they can demand and enforce C, but they feel as though they have some level of control over A and B. It is also similar to a "Magicians Force" in illusions: (Magician wants to force card A) Magician- "Pick a card, A or B..". If the player picks card A, all is well and the card is Forced. If the player picks B the Magician says "Okay, thats the one we'll get rid of." The player feels as though they have a choice.
Dynamic Pacing:
Until a PM chat happens, if it does, we will not know if WIBS is using dynamic pacing, but the players all seem engaged and happy with the pace so far.
Multiple Rabbit Holes:
All three of the WIBS sites lead into the same mystery. Anita's site creates curiosity about her uncle, and upon searching for his name, one would be led to Tucker's sit. Debunkette's site links directly to Tucker's, and Tucker's site funnels all three into the Game World.
Available to New Players at any stage in the game:
Threads summarizing the "Story so far", lists of the Clues and Puzzles to date and community moderators all help new players quickly adjust and get up to speed.
Multiple types of play:
WIBS has this covered as well. Internet search experts, geneologists, puzzle solvers, mystery speculation(ists?), players that prefer character interaction, real world clue hunting; there are many different ways to play or participate in the game.
We have a tightly focused "Genre Specific" game that doesn't have a lot of high cost elements (not saying that it seems low budget, just that the game so far could be duplicated with the right skillset and very little actual money, aside from the banner ads and locational stove photos. Though the Stove photos could still be done in one localized are if there is enough variety of terrain nearby.)
Low Budget? Big Budget? Indie? Pro-Am? Pro?
Our only indication is in the who is registration. Aside from that, my feeling is that WIBS could have any budget and be created by an Indie or Pro team.
*(edited for format)
Posted: Wed Mar 08, 2006 1:47 pm
addlepated
GuyP wrote:
Or to put it another way: the things that women like, everyone likes. Which is kind of weird, and possibly proves their theory that they are right about pretty much everything, but that's left as a debate for the reader.
I always knew you were a smart boy.
I agree with GuyP on what he's saying about grassroots PMs. We shouldn't give an award to the guys who implode just because they tried something that was hard. That sounds like the bizarre schools who give everyone who takes a test an 'A' just for taking it, no matter if they answered questions correctly. That behavior doesn't encourage people to study.
The OC PMs were newbies and managed to turn out an excellent game. They set the grassroots bar high, and there's no excuse of "Well, Karetao or Dave Szulborski was working BTS there so it's no wonder it was good."
Posted: Wed Mar 08, 2006 1:27 pm
rowan
colin wrote:
I think this is the idealist view, I'm taking more of a realistic view. People need practice. Do you tell an 8 year old kid not to play soccer because he's not as good as a professional? He just plays in the under-8 league. If he's good he plays in the under-10 league as well. People need to have practice, and unfiction is the place your going to see it. This community is like the indie film scene that watches low budget movies. This isn't your multiplex cinema showing films with a multi million dollar budget. Sure you can have high expectations for every ARG you play, but who will support the new guy? who will give him feedback on how to improve? Everytime a game collapses it's just "you should have prepared better, flame, flame, flame" I'd rather get to the stage where it's like "this element of the game was strong but you needed to balance it with that element".
We may watch low budget indie films, but we still watch them on the big screen at some art house or stuff that has actually made it to dvd or video. We're not going out and watching 8 year olds play soccer or getting all excited to see a film made by a first time filmmaker one afternoon in his backyard because he was bored. Can you imagine some random acquaintance telling you to come see this play or film and, deciding to take the time to actually go and see it, finding out it's actually Miss Miller's 3rd Grade Class performing Stone Soup? Would you be happy? Of course not. It would be a lot different if you were told "My kid is in a school play - wanna come?" but how many times are we told in the ARG world that this is just a practice run, a school play if you will? We're not.
Sure, this is a place for people to practice their craft, but I hope by the time they get here, they are at least at a varsity level. I'm not one of your close friends or a member of your extended family ready to be supportive no matter what you may throw at me. I'm a random stranger, expecting at least a modicrum of knowledge by the PMs in the games that I play. I'm not expecting absolute greatness, but I also don't want to watch people tripping over their own feet because they don't know how to run with the ball. I'm sure that there are a number of people here willing to play along with someone who has absolutely no idea what it is that they are doing, but only if they know that going in.
Is there any sort of place here for PMs just learning the ropes? Sure there is. We have all sorts of posts from past and present PMs telling of their experiences. They are the professional and college level soccer players telling the 8 year olds what they have to do to get better. But, in order to actually get any better, the 8 year olds do, at some point, have to listen to the tips that are being passed onto them. How many times has it been said "Don't PM alone" and how many first time PMs whose games have utterly imploded been single PMs? Quite a few.
I really don't think it's too much to expect that the PMs who present their games here either know what they are doing, or let people know that they don't when the game starts. If more PMs were open about what kind of level they were at, maybe we could get rid of the YMMV tag on ARGN and label games more appropriately. But right now, players are basically walking into a theatre not knowing if they are going to get a 3rd grade play or a college performance. And how is that fair to them? In my personal opinion, it's not.
Posted: Wed Mar 08, 2006 9:47 am
MageSteff
Ethernull wrote:
colin wrote:
Quote:
Player Agency:
I think it's worth saying that players can only make decisions you let them make. They don't have to control everything, in fact they don't have to control ANYthing.
In my opinion, if players control nothing, it is not an ARG, it is story telling. I don't mean that to sound confrontational, it is not meant that way. A single puzzle, a single interaction (as opposed to a statement that merely drops a clue in IM regardless of the players conversation with the character) or a single internet search gives players control. What if the player doesnt understand it, what if their search on google yields nothing, what if they dont solve the puzzle? The story branches, or in some cases, dies completely.
I think you may have missed the point Ethernull. You can make the players feel as if they are affecting the story when all they are doing is driving the story in the direction you already planned for it to go. It is very difficult to plan for every direction players may go, and if you alllow players to take the game in a directi9on you have not planned for your game will quickly get away from you and hurt the quality of your game. It is possible to limit player choices to just a couple directions that you control and may lead the players back into your main story rather than give them carte blanc to take the storyline off your intended path.
Trust me on this even if you think I am just full of hot air on everything else. As a PM you must remain in control of the flow of your game.
Posted: Wed Mar 08, 2006 8:06 am
GuyP
By the by, Ethernull:
Quote:
• Male audiences, in general, prefer Action, Adventure, Surprise, Tension and Intrigue.
• Female audiences, in general, prefer realistic characters, depth of personality, interaction, and a compelling story and plot.
One of the interesting things about Games That Are A Big Hit With The Ladies is that they tend to be an equally big hit with guys. They're just notable in the fact that their gender take-up is roughly 50/50, rather than massively skewed towards men. Your simplification hits it on the head, I think - speaking as a dude, I rather enjoy "realistic characters, depth of personality, interaction, and a compelling story." I don't think many men would reject that in favour of some "totally 2D, unbelievable characters, following a plot with no direction or momentum, thanks very much."
Or to put it another way: the things that women like, everyone likes. Which is kind of weird, and possibly proves their theory that they are right about pretty much everything, but that's left as a debate for the reader.
What's more important to notice is that the second lot of stuff is much, much easier to depict within an ARG. You can't simply break out the CGI special effects and awesome stunts to appease the primitive instincts of the Y-chromosomed, but you do have an incredible opportunity to build a deep, meaningful story with rich, multifaceted characterisation.
Posted: Wed Mar 08, 2006 7:52 am
GuyP
So you're essentially saying that "indie" has become so synonymous with "bad", and you don't want to damn the quality PMs with the same label?
I know how you feel, but my original argument still stands.
I don't agree that "having high expectations for every ARG you play" and "supporting the new guy" are mutually exclusive, either. It's just a harder kind of test - a lot more people flunk it, but the people that pass can really feel like they've kicked ass. That's just my personal perspective, however, and perhaps a more "understanding" approach may be required to nurture new PMs. Understanding, yes, but not
indulgent
, because if poor PMs have so blackened the name of "indie ARGs" that you're no longer willing to ascribe the title to "indie ARGs that are actually good", then something is way messed up.
Now imbri, please rescue this thread before I derail it completely.
Posted: Wed Mar 08, 2006 7:35 am
colin
At the risk of draging this thread off-topic I'm going to reply to a bit of this:
GuyP wrote:
But at the risk of sounding churlish, if you aren't trying to create a great game, why bother starting in the first place?
Because you have to start somewhere...
GuyP wrote:
Furthermore, if simply "having the game finish" is your primary goal, why should anyone bother playing it?
I personally wouldn't. but...
GuyP wrote:
I don't quite understand the distinctions you've made between "pro-am" and "amateur." If by "pro-am" you mean grassroots PMs with the dedication and talent to produce a professional game, then that's the standard I expect from
all
amateur teams.
I think this is the idealist view, I'm taking more of a realistic view. People need practice. Do you tell an 8 year old kid not to play soccer because he's not as good as a professional? He just plays in the under-8 league. If he's good he plays in the under-10 league as well. People need to have practice, and unfiction is the place your going to see it. This community is like the indie film scene that watches low budget movies. This isn't your multiplex cinema showing films with a multi million dollar budget. Sure you can have high expectations for every ARG you play, but who will support the new guy? who will give him feedback on how to improve? Everytime a game collapses it's just "you should have prepared better, flame, flame, flame" I'd rather get to the stage where it's like "this element of the game was strong but you needed to balance it with that element".
Also I think your words tell another part of the story "talent" not skill...
GuyP wrote:
It does people like Karaeto a disservice to suggest they have some kind of untouchable "extraness", when they've worked with the exactly same constraints as other grassroots PMs and produced (frankly) superior results.
I view the opposite, I'm putting Karaeto on a pedestal becaue they are so good. I don't want to lump them with the "PM" whose game collapsed after two weeks. Imbri is working in ARGs, Steve has been hired by 4orty2wo, and Dave Szulborski, who I'd also call pro-am worked on Art of The Heist. These guys are literally bridging between professional and amateur. They are getting these jobs based off the work they have done, the (albeit small) ARG industry recognises these guys as producing quality work. Why shouldn't we?
This community has avoided any type of classing, and that's largely been a good thing. ARGN introducing the "YMMV" tag for "indie" games caused a good deal of comment. I don't really expect these categories of PM to stick, but I've got to do something. The PMs that don't target UF as an audience, that don't have games that collapse, that don't post a trailhead to UF, that don't AIM someone, that actually do something to shape this genre of gaming as a positive thing deserve more credit.
Posted: Wed Mar 08, 2006 5:54 am
GuyP
We promise to keep the thread right here until your glorious return.
Posted: Wed Mar 08, 2006 4:18 am
imbri
GuyP wrote:
A jigsaw puzzle only makes one picture, but the satisfaction is from putting it together and seeing what it is. If people wanted to make their own pictures, they'd just buy some paints instead.
I am so going to steal this from you.
(oh and great post and other stuff. i've got lots i want to add into this topic but it's almost 5 am and I must sleep before the sun rises)
Posted: Wed Mar 08, 2006 3:43 am
GuyP
Quote:
The amateur games just aren't big enough to support all these things. Trail heads are being posted directly to UF, stories aren't going to be multi-arc cross-genre materpieces. I'm puting having the game finish (i.e not implode) above having a great game. At the amateur level that is a much better goal.
But at the risk of sounding churlish, if you aren't trying to create a great game, why bother starting in the first place? Furthermore, if simply "having the game finish" is your primary goal, why should anyone bother playing it? I don't quite understand the distinctions you've made between "pro-am" and "amateur." If by "pro-am" you mean grassroots PMs with the dedication and talent to produce a professional game, then that's the standard I expect from
all
amateur teams. It does people like Karaeto a disservice to suggest they have some kind of untouchable "extraness", when they've worked with the exactly same constraints as other grassroots PMs and produced (frankly) superior results. Not only that, but it cuts your "real amateur" teams an unfavourable amount of slack, implying that they should only try and acheive mediocrity, as they don't have the magical secret sauce of the "pro-amateurs."
That's just crap. If you're an amateur PM, you're in exactly the same boat as the team behind Lockjaw, Metacortechs, Chasing The Wish, Urban Hunt, and so on, and so forth. If you don't have the guts to hold yourself to that kind of standard - if you really only aspire to the dizzy heights of being an 'ARG with Potential' - then how can you, or your players, be passionate about your game?
On the other hand, Colin, I agree that Ethernull's (excellent!) document seems fairly ambitious, and while I champion ambition as a vital ingredient in the development of an ARG, not all teams might feel capable of fulfilling all the points within. Fair play, I suppose. But ARGs don't need to be huge, wide-ranging epics - they can be tight, focused, claustrophobic. Look at "
Who Is Benjamin Stove?
" for example - it has three websites.
Three!
Does it look like it cost tens of thousands of dollars to produce?
No
! It's not about a huge government conspiracy, either, but a very simple question: "who painted this painting?"
It's the product of talent and effort, and thankfully my friends, these are available to you too. Be small if you must, but be excellent.
A couple more things towards Ethernull upon reviewing the thread again:
It's interesting that you propose fully mixing genres in your work. My first reaction was similar to Colin's, but on reflection ARGs are the perfect space in which to do so. Because the story is told from so many different perspectives, you can have humour, horror, romance and reallybigexplosions all within the same game. If you really pulled it off, I imagine the juxtaposition could be very effective in places.
On the other hand, I largely disagree with your points regarding interactivity etc. I don't think the story has to respond very much to the actions of players, and I believe that many successful games have been run, more or less, "on rails." I don't dispute that it can be rewarding for players to feel like they're influencing the game, but I think "understanding" - learning more about the story, by completing tasks - has a wider appeal. A jigsaw puzzle only makes one picture, but the satisfaction is from putting it together and seeing what it is. If people wanted to make their own pictures, they'd just buy some paints instead.
Posted: Wed Mar 08, 2006 2:12 am
colin
@Ethernull : Thanks for the response. I Think I interpreted some of your points differently to how they were intended. addlepated said alot better what I was trying to say about the story/genre thing.
@everyone : My use of 'marketing' wasn't really exactly what I meant, but I'll roll with it now.
To expand on why grassroots should be carful when using this: I'm worried about smaller scale productions, games running in the "ARGs with Potential" section.
I'm going to create some new divisions* for PMs 'professional' 'pro-am' 'amateur'. Games like Lockjaw and Metacortechs fit in to the pro-am catagory. This level of game should worry about the things in the first post. It's the amateur catagory that should be worried about over stretching.
The amateur games just aren't big enough to support all these things. Trail heads are being posted directly to UF, stories aren't going to be multi-arc cross-genre materpieces. I'm puting having the game finish (i.e not implode) above having a great game. At the amateur level that is a much better goal.
*if some reporter can
create 4 types of ARG
, I can create 3 types of PMs
Posted: Tue Mar 07, 2006 5:54 pm
Ethernull
Re: Key Elements in a Successfull ARG
Thanks for the feedback Addlepated, excellent points, all.
Especially:
addlepated wrote:
While I understand your point, I think that stories in general benefit from less categorization rather than more. For example, I love the Dark Tower series by Stephen King, but in trying to explain its genre (fantasy/western/sci-fi) I've potentially alienated three separate groups ("Oh, I don't like westerns. I'll pass.") than if I were to say, "It's not easily defined, but the story and characters are gripping." Everyone understands a good story, but trying to label it further sets preconceived notions and prejudices into play. Most all stories have elements of two or more genres anyway.
That is, I believe, the best explanation of "Genre vs. Story" I have ever read.
Posted: Tue Mar 07, 2006 12:31 pm
imbri
Wow, excellent post Ethernull.
colin wrote:
All round, well done. I think your target was to create a guide for marketers, who need to hit certain audience numbers. I think grassroots games should be really careful in using this document. They could very easily over stretch themselves.
While I do agree that his post provides insights needed for a large general audience, I don’t think that is reserved towards “marketers.” In fact, I believe that marketers could sometimes be better rewarded with a more targeted audience. And, as for grassroots games needing to be careful following this, if they’re going for a large general audience, they absolutely should look at the tips provided. The team behind Lockjaw & Metacortechs have a similar set of ideas that they follow and I think that it worked very well for them (us). And, while it seems as if it’s a stretch to use a document such as this, I believe that it’s better to be stretched than to be running around without any sort of direction.
(more thoughts on all of this later… but again, excellent posts)
Posted: Tue Mar 07, 2006 12:24 pm
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