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[quote="imbri"][b]UF vs Non-UF[/b]
[i]Implications of designing for a non-uf crowd
Weaknesses of UF
Elements of an ARG
Elements of an ARG audience[/i]

<imbri> ok, ehsan had a great question before he left us to go to sleep
 <RungeKutta> what a wimp
 <imbri> it's gonna shift us back a bit
 <imbri> <Ehsan> How can you design a game for communities other than UF, without hurting UF's feelings
 <RungeKutta> why would it hurt anyone's feelings?
 <silentpyjamas> i was wondering that myself lol
 <varin> The UFers could join the other community or not
 <imbri> heh, well, i think we've all seen uf (over)react at games that weren't really meant for them
 <imbri> "this is stupid!" "this isn't right!" "gah! those people over there are a bunch of maroons!"
 <RungeKutta> imbri :  well I was going to mention that, but I decided I didn't know if someone would get pissed or not
 <varin> I think that's probably a vocal minority though
 <guy_partly_absent> I think there's probably ways to justify the style of the game within the game
 <silentpyjamas> that sounds like it would be debilitating, to only focus games all the time on one community
 <CrustyBottom> "Turn the channel", that's what I say. :)
 <RungeKutta> varin :  Yea I think it falls under the "With the birth of the artist is the afterbirth, the critic" category
 <silentpyjamas> heheh mel brooks
 <RungeKutta> mel brooks is cool
 <silentpyjamas> yessir
 <varin> there will always be those who enjoy complaining even if its only for the sake of complaining
 <imbri> yep
 <imbri> i am not looking at myself, nope, not at all, not me, uhuh
 <Sin_Vraal> hey i just got here, no making fun of me
 <CrustyBottom> :)
 * varin complains a bit about those people
 <RungeKutta> Sin_Vraal :  that's after you go to bed
 * dmax looks for a place to file complaint against varin
 <guy_partly_absent> I think Sable & Shuck was a good example: from a UF perspective it was soooooo slow, but they clearly had their own agenda
 <silentpyjamas> i guess i sort of see it the other way around.  the game should exist for the sake of itself, whoever comes into it is merely a participant.
 <imbri> yep, great point guy
 <imbri> and that hits on something cath brought up when ehsan told me his question
 <Sin_Vraal> i complained to varin once.  she strategicallt spit at me while i was yawning.  gross.
 <imbri> <catherwood> a side question to that one is: if you DO design a game for a non-UF community, how do you prevent UF seasoned players from overrunning the virgin territory?
 <guy_partly_absent> However, they never made reference to their own agenda, justified the pace either in an IG or OOG way, or anything
 <RungeKutta> I think that can be helped with the story
 <guy_partly_absent> Or the bigger question: is it possible?
 <RungeKutta> unless all you have are easy puzzles
 <guy_partly_absent> We like ARGs, so if you've made one, we're gonna play it, unless we can't get to it
 <guy_partly_absent> But: is that so bad?
 <dmax> sable and shuck WERE interesting. classy looking, interesting premise. acted like it was encased in amber
 <guy_p> I know, the quality was excellent, hence the frustration
 <dmax> when does it explode?
 <guy_p> But I felt they saw us more a bunch of whiners than an asset
 <guy_p> They might have had a point :)
 <varin> we like ARGs and want to play them when we find them, but then should we complain about "ARGs" that we find that don't stand up to our definitions?
 <imbri> varin: agreed
 <catherwood> varin, we can complain if they misuse the label 'ARG' to mislead an audience
 <CrustyBottom> Shouldn't but do. :)
 <imbri> who are we to demand that they design to us
 <silentpyjamas> zackly
 <guy_p> Well, it depends if there's a difference between complaining and... thinking it's bad
 <dmax> knowing your audience: short-attention span stay-at-homers who wait impatiently for the next thing to be sat in their lap, or folks with a life who can only attack it step by step?
 <silentpyjamas> you could cater to both
 <imbri> hardcores vs casuals vs lurkers
 <dmax> folks who are awake all hours of the day, because this is all they can do successfully - or folks who can only get to the game a few times a week and have a helluvatime catching up on myriad plot twists
 <RungeKutta> hahaha nice dmax
 <guy_p> But traditionally, it's the first lot of folks who support the second lot of folks
 <varin> I think any online "live" game has that problem
 <dmax> folks with a deep background knowledge of the subject matter, or folks who are so young or undereducated as to miss the backstory
 <guy_p> Then again, maybe that's just because the games are so twisty it necessistates it
 <dmax> (when Dave S veers into mythology, some people eat it up like M&Ms, but I"m completely ignorant)
 <imbri> (you and me both)
 * dmax sings Kumbaya
 <guy_p> i don't know if you touched on this earlier, but i think it's interesting that 42 pretty much include UF amongst their "strengths" (from their website)
 <dmax> i want a commission
 <varin> ready made group of players?
 <RungeKutta> I think dmax is correct there
 <RungeKutta> consumers to market to
 <guy_p> they "Kick-start the campaign with a core group of loyalists", in their own words
 <guy_p> so, you know, we aren't all terrible gamewreckin' mofos
 <dmax> it's like when a reporter comes up to a person. I'm surprised that the response isn't: "You get paid for this? Then I want a piece of your action if I'm helping you do your job."
 <guy_p> I think one of the reasons of forumspite is that ARGs are made up of so many ingredients, and everyone gives a different weight to each element
 <dmax> back to the topic: how, do you think, does one come to know one's audience?
 <RungeKutta> guy_p :  well I think if anyone publiclly shared displeasure for 42, they'd have a fight on their hands
 <RungeKutta> which is pretty cool for 42
 <guy_p> Like, a book is a book, it's made up of characters, setting, plot
 <guy_p> ARGs: People like the puzzles. Others are into the story. Some want it slower, others faster, others can't stand OOGness, and so on and so forth
 <catherwood> does an author write a western because he wants that demographic for $$, or just because he likes to write westerns and is good at it?
 <dmax> I appreciate 42's existence. SOMEone had to step into that role. It's like Warhol - SOMEone was gonna come up with those ideas - he just did it first. Same with 42: the niche of commercialization of ARGs was eventually going to happen.
 <catherwood> first you decide you want to write a western, and THEN decide how to find that audience?
  <silentpyjamas> i think so
 <guy_p> Again, the audience is mostly prebuilt I think, the better parallel is "how do i get people who don't usually read westerns to read *my* western?"
 <catherwood> or, as a PM, are you saying "I sure would like to tap into that group of people who like poker" and then figure out how to write something they'll like?
 <silentpyjamas> once you know what you're writing, you can expand your feelers to find peripheral ways to attract people
 <CrustyBottom> You already have a "target market"... people who enjoy reading western stories.
 <dmax> well, catherwood, wouldn't it depend on the job of the writer: hired gun to clean up a book for sale - versus someone who's writing as an "artiste"
 <CrustyBottom> It's how you market the book that decides who buys it.
 * silentpyjamas nods
 <dmax> the cover
 <dmax> where you put it
 <CrustyBottom> That, plus the back, any articles written about it, etc.
 <silentpyjamas> the language you use on it
 <guy_p> Does anyone think there are strong, potentially ARG-friendly audiences out there, that aren't tied to specific existing IP?
 <catherwood> but an ARG audience is more than tastes in stories, it's also a skill set, and available time slots, and so much more overlapping
 <dmax> those oily, bulky men leaning over their scantily clad women as magnolias bloom all around them...
 <silentpyjamas> :O
 <CrustyBottom> cath: I would agree. But I would also say that the way that you choose to market your game results in who decides to play it.
 <dmax> guy, i do. i think that there are thousands of people - most of them not speaking english? - that are ARG friendly folks.
 <crouchosarus> So, if I wanted to make an ARG, I would make it around an audience not make it then find an audience is what your saying?
 <dmax> at least for a while
 <imbri> guy: i absolutely think so
 <guy_p> It depends what the defining quality of your audience is, I suppose
 <CrustyBottom> You will already have an audience of sorts. There is not a story that you can think of that doesn't have a higher subtext to it.
 <imbri> i think it also depends on the type of game
 <guy_p> If your audience is content-specific, like "ballet dancers", than that informs your whole storyline
 <imbri> i think that the model of ARG prefered by uf is only one such model
 <CrustyBottom> Mysteries
 <imbri> and, frankly, i think it has some huge weaknesses
 <guy_p> Such as?
 <CrustyBottom> Most, if not all ARGs' fall under the "mystery" catagory of story.
 <crouchosarus> So like if I made a Halo ARG I would not need to find an audience, I would just make sure Halo nerds (or n00bs) knew it was coming out
 <guy_p> Umm, isn't that the same thing?
 <imbri> a weakness in the game design prefered by uf?
 <catherwood> do you do research first, to find out if there even is a group of people who both like westerns (forexample) AND can do ciphers?
 <guy_p> imbri: yes
 <imbri> i think that it's very lurker unfriendly
 <imbri> and, even moreso, tends to reject casual gameplay
 <imbri> they are designed for hard core players
 <silentpyjamas> maybe it's that the uf audience has come to expect certain things, while the wider world is probably completely unaware of them
 <dmax> agree - that's why i haven't played a real game in a while
 <imbri> yep
 <imbri> and it's cyclical
 * silentpyjamas nods
 <dmax> I'm not an unemployed adolescent anymore
 * guy_p rocks the unemployed adolescence
 <imbri> the games that get the attention get written up on argn, they get the buzz on uf
 <imbri> so those games are used as examples
 <dmax> enjoy it while you can, guy_p!
 <guy_p> I do my best, dmax
 <silentpyjamas> well, how many games show up on argn that aren't on uf?
 <imbri> to create even more lurker/casual plyaer unfriendly games
 <imbri> and so on and so forth etc etc etc
 <imbri> very few
 <imbri> to none[/quote]

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